Book PR tips from Audrey Ward: How to pitch to The Times and Sunday Times

Alessia Horwich (00:07):

Welcome to On The Rox, a podcast from Roxhill Media that asks some of the most important journalists in the UK for their solutions to the kind of dilemmas that PRs confront daily. At Roxhill, we know that there isn’t a one size fits all way of communicating with journalists, so instead of trying to tell you how to do your jobs, we go straight to the writers in the newsrooms for advice on the most effective ways of getting your message across to them. My name is Alessia Horwich. I’m a former Sunday Times journalist, and now the director of Creative Content and Brand at Roxhill. And today we’re going to be talking about pitching books to the Times and Sunday Times with Audrey Ward who is head of Serialisations. Hi Audrey, how are you?

Audrey Ward (00:49):

Hi Alessia. I am very well and I feel very privileged to be here and to be named as one of the top journalists in the UK. I don’t know if that’s quite true, but anyway, I’ll take it.

Alessia Horwich (00:58):

Well, we had Laura Hackett and Phoebe Luckhurst from the Sunday Times in last week, and it was Audrey, Audrey, Audrey, Audrey the whole time. So you must be worthy of that title. Can we start, and you tell me a bit about becoming a journalist. Did you always want to be a journalist from when you were tiny? How did it happen for you?

Audrey Ward (01:16):

I always loved writing and reading and won the odd short story competition, so had kind of designs, but my parents both had gone into the law. I have a dad who was qualified as a barrister. My mother was a solicitor, so that kind of seemed like an obvious stepping stone. So I qualified as a solicitor, but I ended up working in house for a film company and all the fun things everyone else was doing, I was feeling my job was very straight laced and not very creative. So I took a year out, did a course in journalism at City University and did a work placement at The Sunday Times and a job came up there and I think the person I’d worked with on work experience recommended me and so I’ve been there for the last 15 years now.

Alessia Horwich (01:57):

15 years. How old were you when you changed?

Audrey Ward (02:00):

So I was in my late twenties.

Alessia Horwich (02:02):

Ok.

Audrey Ward (02:03):

Yeah.

Alessia Horwich (02:04):

And has it always been books?

Audrey Ward (02:05):

No. So I started off on the news review desk, so that was very much following the news agenda, chasing things on a Monday and then the ideas being upended and then starting afresh Thursday, fixing commissioning, little bit of writing. And then after four years I moved to the Sunday Times Magazine, so I was a features editor there, so that was much more, it’s called the shallow end of the swimming pool, much more lackadaisical, slower time pressures, civilised hours. I was not on news review. I’d been working till midnight on Fridays most weeks, whereas this was home time at six o’clock. So it was a nice transition and lots of celebrity stuff. And then at that point I started commissioning some book related content, but it wasn’t my sole remit. And then I had a year where I was doing maternity cover on the home section, so that was really interesting doing interiors and property stuff and then back to the magazine. And at that point, maybe five years ago, I took over the kind of running of the books.

Alessia Horwich (03:04):

I would think that it’s a unique position across the media. I mean, I’ve got a good overview of the media and I think even your job title sometimes can feel a bit opaque for PRs. Like head of Serialisations, it’s not super straightforward. How did they come up with it?

Audrey Ward (03:17):

Well, probably this is a terrible reflection on me. It was my idea.

Alessia Horwich (03:21):

Oh god.

Audrey Ward (03:21):

So I came up with this terrible name. Maybe you could suggest an alternative and I’ll happily go back.

Alessia Horwich (03:28):

Queen of Books.

Audrey Ward (03:29):

Queen of Books might seem more appropriate. What happened was I was doing the books for the magazine, but I could see there was lots of books coming to me and I felt, well, this isn’t quite right for the magazine, but this would be brilliant in Style or this would be a great one for News Review or Sport should be looking at this. And so I went to the editor of the Sunday Times and said, look, I think there is a wider role here. Would you allow me to take on this role where I officially start becoming the central point across the Sunday Times because there’s so much doubling up and no one seemed to know what other sections were doing. And I think he was a bit kind of like, okay, well off you go and didn’t give me a title. So then I thought, well, what am I going to call myself? And so my husband was like, what about Head of Serialisations? And we thought head sounded very important. A lot of what I do is I keep in touch with publicists, hear about what’s coming up, go through all the catalogues, and I’m kind of earmarking the ones that I think sound particularly interesting. And then we do a four planner every Wednesday where I meet with the editor and the deputy editor and all the section heads and I will raise books at that meeting and say, well, this isn’t one for the mag, but this could be for Style or this could be for Culture. And also just letting them know about, look, these are the big books I’m chasing. So coming up later this year, Nicola Sturgeon has a memoir or Jacinda Ardern has a memoir or Beyoncé’s mom, Tina Knowles has a memoir. So it’s letting them know these are the ones coming up and if there’s a kind of general interest around the table, I get a sense of oh, they’re really keen on that one and that’s one I’m going to really push to try and secure for the Sunday Times.

Alessia Horwich (05:05):

If you’ve got a murmur scale where when it’s like mmm and then a bit louder.

Audrey Ward (05:10):

Yes and if it’s tumbleweed, I know, okay, well I might be interested in that one, but clearly no one else is, so it’s one to leave.

Alessia Horwich (05:17):

What I wanted to know was how important is books related content to the Sunday Times? I mean to both titles, how much of it are you guys doing?

Audrey Ward (05:27):

So much. Literally every week there is something that’s book related. So whether it’s a big interview with an author, whether it’s a book extract, it could be in our health and fitness pages, we’re also launching kind of a parenting strand. And even if it’s not for the magazine, it’ll be in news review. So we’ll get splashes like front page news stories off the back of books. So literally, I would say on an average week, some weeks we’ve had three book-led features as our three big pieces in the magazine. So there could be the author interview, there could be an authored piece, there could be an extract.

Alessia Horwich (06:01):

That’s astonishing in one week.

Audrey Ward (06:04):

Yeah. And there’s also Relative Values, Life in the Day. And again, if something’s not quite right for a big interview, I will say to Liz Edwards, who looks after that slot, this could be great for a Relative Values – let’s get this author and their sibling or their child.

Alessia Horwich (06:18):

And now I guess because the two titles aren’t in competition in the same way that they used to be, you can work in a more complementary way. So like linking pieces up like that. And it’s great that there’s this one point of contact, so you’ve got this massive overview of everything.

Audrey Ward (06:33):

Exactly. So in the past we would’ve been very separate, very much in competition. And part of my goal with this new role was to try and bring in those ties. So for example, this weekend we’ve got a Bill Gates extract running in News Review on Sunday and The Times is running a big interview on Saturday. So it’s to make sure we’re not competing against each other when actually if we work together, one person can get one bite of the cherry and another person can get the other.

Alessia Horwich (07:02):

So it would always be an extract and a complementary format.

Audrey Ward (07:05):

Exactly.

Alessia Horwich (07:06):

Ok.

Audrey Ward (07:07):

And sometimes it can be that we would run, so for example, we also had a big interview with Chris Hoy where he broke the news of his prostate cancer in The Sunday Times. We did a big interview in the magazine, but then we followed it up the following week with a News Review piece, and an extract from the book. What we’re really trying to do is get a lot more hits from the book content and we are also trying to get authors to work with us in terms of Times podcast, Times Radio, doing social media, so being willing to be filmed for video clips, that kind of thing. So we did that with Michael Lewis, the American author last year – we had an extract in the magazine, we had News Review interview, he did I think Times Radio. And so it is literally to try and make sure we’re availing of all the opportunities and maximising the publicity that the author can get.

Alessia Horwich (08:02):

Does that mean that when you are in these hot negotiations for the celebrity titles or the things that everybody wants, you’ve got a lot to offer a PR in terms of coverage?

Audrey Ward (08:12):

Yes, definitely. A lot of PRs are saying now they’re coming to us because they know they can get automatic access to Times Radio or that there’s scope for appearing on a podcast or a Times Plus event. So we’re really trying to build those networks internally. So I had a meeting yesterday with all those different divisions and ran through, this is what’s coming up over the coming year. And is anyone interested in any specific authors and if so, okay, great – Times Radio, you’re keen on this one, Times Events, you’re keen on that – so there’s lots of scope in terms of it’s not just one hit.

Alessia Horwich (08:49):

Can you outline for me just really quickly what the difference between what you’re doing is and the books sections.

Audrey Ward (08:56):

Yes

Alessia Horwich (08:56):

So there’s no confusion.

Audrey Ward (08:57):

So what I’m doing is mainly nonfiction focused. So I very rarely delve into the world of fiction unless it’s a big author. For example, Marian Keyes might have – she’s written for us before – or John Lanchester, JK Rowling for example, has written for us. So if it’s a big name that’s instantly recognisable, but otherwise we try and keep it to fiction doing something for Culture. And obviously we don’t do reviews in the magazine, so the reviews will all happen and we work closely with the books team to make sure that we’re going first and they’re holding their reviews until after we’ve run. So that’s important as well.

Alessia Horwich (09:39):

So if it’s fiction, it’s Robbie Millen and Laura Hackett are the first points of call for The Times and Sunday Times.

Audrey Ward (09:45):

Yes.

Alessia Horwich (09:46):

I think probably the PRs that are listening to this are thinking about not these massive books that they can tout out to you and you have to come to them and beg for – not, maybe not beg – but certainly put in your bid for. It’s more of the books that perhaps are a bit under the radar, maybe debut authors. What’s your kind of approach with those? How should PRs be coming to you with them? What can they do to emphasise the legitimacy of these books and why they’re worth covering to you?

Audrey Ward (10:18):

So for example, debut authors – Emma Healey wrote Elizabeth is Missing a few years ago, and the publicist came to us and said, look, this is going to be huge and persuaded us that we should give this author a chance. And so we got her to write a piece and kind of test her writing. It was basically the inspiration for the story of this woman who kind of feels her mind is going. And she wrote a fantastic piece, really personal, and so that was an instance where it was fiction. So if a publisher has a really big title that they’re throwing a lot of money behind – that this is going to be their big title of the coming year – then that is definitely one flagging up to the magazine. In terms of nonfiction, we’ve worked with a huge amount of debut authors. There’s one, I think his name was Matt Knott who wrote Confessions of a Tutor to the Super Rich.

Alessia Horwich (11:13):

Oh gosh.

Audrey Ward (11:14):

So that was a fantastic story and it was just this guy who became a tutor and suddenly was working for Russians and super wealthy – going on ski trips – and it was an ordinary person with a kind of really unusual story and unusual access. We’ve also done Confessions of a Prison Officer, so this was a debut author and she had written a book all about what it was like to be a prison officer and to be a woman working in that environment. So that did phenomenally well. So our readers love these first-person stories that give them an insight into a world they might know very little about.

Alessia Horwich (11:54):

If it’s a fiction author who has an interesting backstory, does that also work then?

Audrey Ward (11:59):

Yes, and I think Style are really good at doing that kind of story as well. So it could be for the magazine or it could be for Style. I think because our features are 3,500 words in and around, it’s a bit more of a battle to try and get it right, whereas I think Style’s features can run at 1,400 words. So that’s a really good platform for someone who has a good personal story.

Alessia Horwich (12:24):

Does that mean it has to be a female personal story?

Audrey Ward (12:26):

No, absolutely not. It could be definitely men and they have men’s special issues and so they would be very open I think to a debut author who has a good story.

Alessia Horwich (12:46):

You mentioned fitness, you mentioned parenting – food is something that comes up a lot with our clients’, food books. How would they get covered?

Audrey Ward (12:54):

The food books – Tony Turnbull and Hannah Evans are the best people to contact about anything food related. They are the experts and they are the ones who generally will be making the call on what should run in the magazine. In terms of health and fitness – Phoebe probably talked a little bit about what she does.

Alessia Horwich (13:13):

Phoebe Luckhurst on the magazine, yeah.

Audrey Ward (13:15):

One to two page spread and anything health and fitness related – it could be mental health, it could be getting your body into shape, how to live longer, any of those how-to’s. I think a lot of our readers respond really well to, “I had this problem and this is how I fixed it”, and that’s kind of those pages showcase it really well.|

Audrey Ward (13:38):

Yeah. And for those slots, is it less likely that you would extract and it would always be a feature.

Alessia Horwich (13:42):

Generally it is an interview.

Alessia Horwich (13:44):

An interview, okay. You wouldn’t ever get – do you ever get authors to write something for you specifically?

Audrey Ward (13:50):

Yeah, we have. I mean often it’s the kind of publicity teams that will contact us and offer us an interview, but if the author is open to writing – or often there might be a really good bite-size section in a book – then we would extract it.

Alessia Horwich (14:04):

I’m going to go back to the food thing because it was really interesting. We were talking to Laura Hackett and it was just after they’d published a review of a food book and a full-page review in the book section. I was really surprised because I was like, that doesn’t happen. And it was because it was kind of part memoir and part – I don’t think there were any recipes in it actually – but it was this kind of change in food writing where it’s much more about writing about food as a whole with some recipes on the side. Have you come across that yet

Audrey Ward (14:34):

Yes.

Alessia Horwich (14:35):

and have you treated it in any way?

Audrey Ward (14:36):

Well, for example, I think there’s two books coming out later this year. One is by Olia Hercules, the Ukrainian food writer who I coincidentally worked with years ago at Screen International.

Alessia Horwich (14:47):

Oh gosh.

Audrey Ward (14:47):

And so I’m really interested to see that book. There may be recipes, I suspect there’ll be lots of really good personal stories in there given everything that’s happened in Ukraine. So that’s one I would be very keen. So it’s not that I would never consider a food – it’s more, if it’s a straightforward food recipe book, then it’s Tony and Hannah. But if there’s a kind of memoir – so Bee Wilson also has a book coming out, which I’m very keen on. I don’t want Nicola Jeal to hear this, but I’m very keen to secure that one. So again, yes, if there’s a good story there, I’m really interested.

Alessia Horwich (15:17):

It’s so funny because I think when I was leaving the Sunday Times, this is when I started seeing this personal story thing coming through and we see constantly now when we’re talking to all journalists. Why do you think readers are so obsessed with personal stories?

Audrey Ward (15:29):

I think it’s kind of the authenticity and just getting an insight into someone else’s life and making you think – or like I said about the Confessions of a Tutor to the Super Rich. It’s kind of just an insight into a world you might never know. And it also comes down to the writing as well. I mean, we worked on Sasha Swire’s Diary of an MP’s Wife, which did really well and it was the humour in that book that swung it for me. And also another book we worked on, The Marmalade Diaries, which was about a kind of odd couple living together – a much older woman and a much younger man – and they kind of ended up house sharing and it was just so many funny anecdotes. So it doesn’t even have to be an amazing story. Just if the writing is really brilliant, then that’s kind of going to swing it for me.

Alessia Horwich (16:24):

I think Laura said in the interview that they give the first 50 pages of the book a read, and if they’re gripped by then, then it’s a go. Is that the same for you?

Audrey Ward (16:33):

No, a lot of the time with me, it’s: is this a good story? Does it make me want to read it? I mean, for example, a book about open marriages – that’s going to…

Alessia Horwich (16:44):

You already know

Audrey Ward (16:45):

immediately grasp my attention and I already know that’s going to do really, really well. So with those types of titles, and then often if it’s a big name – because obviously we’re looking at the big celebrities as well – so the book might not be so good, but you’ll know you’ll take the interview and extract, that kind of thing. But if it’s a debut writer, yes, I agree with Laura – you’re usually kind of sucked in very quickly and you can tell the writing is brilliant. It has to engage me straight away because I get sent so many books and I just don’t have the time to read them all. So it’s very quick, instant decisions and often it is just how it’s written in the PR email.

Alessia Horwich (17:21):

Tell me about PR emails that are perfect.

Audrey Ward (17:23):

Well, first of all, I guess they’re letting me know there’s something exclusive maybe about this. Maybe the person has never told their story before, or it could be that they told the story and it went viral.

Alessia Horwich (17:33):

Is saying that it’s new enough?

Audrey Ward (17:37):

No, no. I mean it’s a hard thing to distil because yeah, what will grab me – the thing is, when I was previously pitching and starting out, I was always thinking: what would the editors want to read? And I was maybe selecting things that I didn’t really feel invested in or passionate about, and I kept thinking what would they want? But actually it’s just: do you know what, I want to read this. So for example, we got a book about baldness by the author Stewart Heritage, and I thought, my brother is very panicked about losing his hair – he is going to love this. So if my brother’s going to love it, I think there’s loads of people out there who are going to love this story. So it’s – I’m commissioning for the people in my world. Or I got a pitch about a spy and I thought my father-in-law would love this, so I’m going to commission this because I know there’s so

Alessia Horwich (16:24):

I think Laura said in the interview that they give the first 50 pages of the book a read, and if they’re gripped by then, then it’s a go. Is that the same for you?

Audrey Ward (16:33):

No, a lot of the time with me, it’s: is this a good story? Does it make me want to read it? I mean, for example, a book about open marriages – that’s going to

Alessia Horwich (16:44):

You already know

Audrey Ward (16:45):

-immediately grasp my attention and I already know that’s going to do really, really well. So with those types of titles, and then often if it’s a big name – because obviously we’re looking at the big celebrities as well – so the book might not be so good, but you’ll know you’ll take the interview and extract, that kind of thing. But if it’s a debut writer, yes, I agree with Laura – you’re usually kind of sucked in very quickly and you can tell the writing is brilliant. It has to engage me straight away because I get sent so many books and I just don’t have the time to read them all. So it’s very quick, instant decisions and often it is just how it’s written in the PR email.

Alessia Horwich (17:21):

Tell me about PR emails that are perfect.

Audrey Ward (17:23):

Well, first of all, I guess they’re letting me know there’s something exclusive maybe about this. Maybe the person has never told their story before, or it could be that they told the story and it went viral.

Alessia Horwich (17:33):

Is saying that it’s new enough?

Audrey Ward (17:37):

No, no. I mean it’s a hard thing to distil because yeah, what will grab me – the thing is, when I was previously pitching and starting out, I was always thinking: what would the editors want to read? And I was maybe selecting things that I didn’t really feel invested in or passionate about, and I kept thinking what would they want? But actually it’s just: do you know what, I want to read this. So for example, we got a book about baldness by the author Stewart Heritage, and I thought, my brother is very panicked about losing his hair – he is going to love this. So if my brother’s going to love it, I think there’s loads of people out there who are going to love this story. So it’s – I’m commissioning for the people in my world. Or I got a pitch about a spy and I thought my father-in-law would love this, so I’m going to commission this because I know there’s someone in my life who would really enjoy this. So it’s not about me, it’s kind of thinking – the people in my world, I know they’re going to love this story.

Alessia Horwich (18:36):

I mean, is that a litmus test that our PRs can use themselves?

Audrey Ward (18:40):

Yeah. Definitely.

Alessia Horwich (18:41):

And would you say if it doesn’t pass that they should just not be emailing you?

Audrey Ward (18:45):

Yeah, because I think often it could be a great subject, but I will know and I suspect the PR will know – you’re wading through treacle and it’s not engaging you, it’s not grabbing you. And I do often get PRs saying, “This is the best book I’ve ever read,” or “This is so fascinating,” and it will engage me, but I guess you don’t want to be using that card too many times. Or I’ll say, right, I’ve heard this before and it didn’t match – follow through. And also a lot of people will say, “Oh, this is the Adam Kay of the engineering world,” or “This is the Adam Kay…” – which again, that’s not going to cut through because we get that so many. So it’s to avoid that kind of cliché as well.

Alessia Horwich (19:26):

Yeah. How do you kind of convey to you that somebody is say the Adam Kay of whatever, without using such a kind of clichéd reference? Are there other things that you can say that work just as well?

Audrey Ward (19:39):

What is really helpful and I think publicists don’t often do is direct me to the best chapter or tell me, this is the section you should look at – because as I said, I get hundreds of books, but if someone says “Chapter 13 just blows my mind,” then I will go to Chapter 13 and I’ll say, great, I don’t have to deal with a whole thousands of pages, I can just go straight into that section – and that is a huge help. Or just kind of, if there’s a news story – for example, with the Sasha Swire, the publicist told me, well, she talks about Boris Johnson and she reveals this. So if there’s anything that’s kind of newsy that the publicist feels hasn’t been revealed before, that’s also hugely helpful.

Alessia Horwich (20:23):

How many books do you get sent a week?

Audrey Ward (20:27):

Maybe 50.

Alessia Horwich (20:28):

Oh my gosh.

Audrey Ward (20:29):

A lot of PRs send books in those really pernickety envelopes that you’re having to break your nails to try to open. And some of them have these beautiful envelopes that you just have a little red tag and you can rip it open – and I will always go for the ones that are not glued shut. And often the glued-shut ones will just sit there. So that’s a tip.

Alessia Horwich (20:48):

That’s an amazing tip. Change your packaging,

Audrey Ward (20:50):

Change your packaging

Alessia Horwich (20:50):

Get your book looked at.

Audrey Ward (20:51):

I mean, I don’t want to say that it will come down to that, but it will – if I see a pile there and I’m like, I’m going for the good envelopes first.

Alessia Horwich (20:58):

Do you have a subject line that always wins in your inbox, something that you will definitely always open?

Audrey Ward (21:03):

Yes. If it’s sex, if it’s politics – I mean also, because I know a lot of PRs aren’t getting access to Michael Caine or Angela Merkel or Yulia Navalnaya – but they’re sometimes getting access to people who have a fascinating story and we’re kind of on the sidelines. Susie Ronson wrote a book, Me and Mr. Jones, about being David Bowie’s hairdresser, and that instantly gripped me because I was like, it’s not David Bowie – well fine – but it’s this woman who’s had a ringside seat. And I was just fascinated to know what it was like for her in that kind of periphery.

Alessia Horwich (21:40):

Yeah. What was that subject line then?

Audrey Ward (21:42):

So I think it was the-

Alessia Horwich (21:46):

David Bowie’s hairdresser,

Audrey Ward (21:46):

Me and Mr. Jones and David Bowie’s hairdresser, yeah.

Alessia Horwich (21:49):

To get an interview slot. How big does an author have to be?

Audrey Ward (21:52):

So for the authors, I would say Culture is definitely your best bet. I think 3,500 words is very difficult to get an author to really engage readers right to the end – because what is being an author? It is sitting in a room and writing, and there isn’t very much excitement going on there. Whereas if you are the lead singer in a band, there’s sex, there’s drugs, there’s rock and roll. So it is very, very rare.

Alessia Horwich (22:20):

For you, what are the main things you would say to a PR who’s trying to pitch you a book that isn’t like a massive book that you’re going to really go for – the normal kind of books that our PRs are pitching day to day? What are the main things they need to remember? Maybe three things.

Audrey Ward (22:33):

One is definitely lead-in time. So the magazine does tend to work quite far ahead. We are commissioning right up until April at the moment. So if a PR was to come to me and say, “I’ve got a book, it’s coming out at the end of January or next week,” that’s never going to work – because we’re going to press today for the issue that will appear in 10 days’ time.

And then I would say definitely, if the PR could direct me to the best section – to the bit that might work really well as an extract or the bit that’s going to grip me. Because often books at the beginning will lead you in, but sometimes you might have to wade through a few chapters to get to the really key bit. And I just need a bit that’s going to fill 3,500 words and that’s going to really sing on the page. A little bit about why they enjoy the book and what they think will appeal to readers.

Alessia Horwich (23:25):

I think that actually the more I speak to Times journalists, the more I understand that a lot of the content that you guys are putting out there is stuff that you discuss in the office, people get a bit excited about, and then you do a piece on it. So actually PRs can take that and understand that if they’re talking about it – you guys – and they could say that to you. “We are talking about this in the office.”

Audrey Ward (23:43):

Yeah, and I think as well, humour is something. With everything that’s going on in the world, there is such a place for humour. And for example, one book that really jumped out at me a while ago was a book called Mum Rage, and it was a subject that has been covered – being a mum, maternity leave, what it’s like – but it was the way the author did it in such a humorous but relatable way. I think it’s that voice – where there’s someone who can tell a story, but it feels different to everything you’ve read before.

Alessia Horwich (24:16):

Thanks to Audrey for talking to us about how to pitch books to The Times and Sunday Times. In the next episode of On the Rox, we’ll be talking to Robbie Hawkins, who is a senior radio producer, about how to pitch reactive comment to radio. To keep up to date with all the questions our journalists answer on On the Rox, visit us on social media @RoxhillMedia.

End of transcript.