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Alessia Horwich (00:08):
Welcome to On the Rox, a podcast from Roxhill Media that asks some of the best journalists in the UK for their solutions to the kind of dilemmas that confront PRS daily. We know that there’s not a one size fits all way of communicating with journalists, so we are going direct to the writers in the newsroom to hear how they like to work with PRS and how to stand out in their inboxes. My name is Alessia Horwich. I’m a former Sunday Times journalist, now the brand director at Roxhill. Today we’re going to be talking about why PR should be doing their own FOI requests with the deputy political editor from the Daily Express, Steph Spyro. Steph, thanks so much for joining us today.
Steph Spyro (00:43):
So good to be here.
Alessia Horwich (00:44):
Can you start by just telling me a little bit about you? How did you get into journalism and what is it about journalism you like so much?
Steph Spyro(00:50):
So the crazy thing is initially I didn’t want to be a journalist. Really. I was determined that I was going to be a fashion designer, which really is no, but that is outrageous. If you know me, really thankfully I was about 17 quite stylish. Thank you very much. Thank you. Fake it till you making. I at 17 went and did some work experience with a fashion designer and he kind of left me to just peruse Vogue. When he came back a few hours later, he pointed out that I was more interested in Vogue as an editorial
(01:20):
Than from the fashion side. And that really was a light bulb moment like Oprah. Oprah calls it an aha moment and that completely changed the trajectory of what I was thinking. And at the time, about 2016, growing up in South Africa, there was these massive protests across the country where university students were demonstrating for no university fees as part of an art project. I went and interviewed people. I did what’s now what’s called the Fox pop voice of the people just going out chatting to people on the street. And I really, really enjoyed that. And so when I combined my loves for current affairs and writing and being curious and interviewing, that was really fun. It all rose kind of led back to journalism.
Alessia Horwich (02:03):
And how did you go about doing it then? How did you end up at the Express?
Steph Spyro (02:06):
So key part of the story is moving to the uk. So I moved to the UK to study journalism and media and communication at Kingston University. And I was a bit of a try hard. So I started writing for our student paper from first year, although it is a third year module. And I remember I have one regret and it’s clearly didn’t know my audience, but I was on the hunt for a story and I remember knocking on a student halls at like 9:00 AM on a Saturday, which was obviously insane. So that’s quite memorable. But I was determined to get stories from first year, but it meant that by the time I got to my third year, I’d already been writing for the student paper for a while and I’d put in the work, but there was some luck involved in that. One of our lecturers was a night news editor at the Express and he said to me, Steph, you’re not being challenged. Do you want to come to the Express in the evenings and on the weekends for some shifts? So this is the backend of 2019 now, which becomes key. So I would go to my lectures in the day and then we over to Express HQ and Canary Warf in the evenings and the weekends.
Alessia Horwich (03:07):
That’s quite far from Kingston.
Steph Spyro (03:08):
It is. But I was happy to do it, happy to do it. And I mean the thrill of being in the newsroom is amazing.
Alessia Horwich (03:13):
It’s quite special at night as well, isn’t it?
Steph Spyro (03:17):
The adults had left the building. I mean, you kind of feel, not that I was in charge by absolutely any means, but it was just fun. And the newsroom takes on a life of its own at night, I think especially when the big bosses are gone. And it was just so, so much fun. So the pandemic then struck in March, but I was really grateful to have being offered a full-time job by then already. And so I literally fled university one day and walked into a virtual express museum the very next day. So a lot of hard work and a bit of luck.
Alessia Horwich (03:46):
I think that’s a good combination. And now you are in the lobby. So tell me what is the juiciest thing about working in the lobby?
Steph Spyro (03:54):
Do you know what? It’s really fun and I think the thing that makes a difference to other parts of journalism is probably the proximity to power and being able to roam these epic historic, powerful corridors. It’s quite special to be able to just be having a coffee next to mps and going to the parliamentary bar and having ministers there. I think it’s just your proximity to contact to people who are making massive decisions about the UK, the UK’s position in the world. That’s quite special.
Alessia Horwich (04:29):
What’s the thing that surprised you most about these people?
Steph Spyro (04:33):
What surprised me most? What a really good question.
Alessia Horwich (04:37):
I’m always surprised that they are normal human beings.
Steph Spyro (04:40):
They are humans. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s true. I think. And they are up for a chat. They are humans away from whatever their briefs are and just so happy to have a pint or have a drink and go for lunches. They’re actually humans.
Alessia Horwich (04:57):
Yeah. Today we’re going to talk about freedom of information requests. The reason I wanted to talk to you about this, we did this brilliant session on why surveys, PR surveys often fail. I mean you can see the notes for that on the Roxhill database if you’re interested. But you made a comment about freedom of information requests and how useful they are and how PR should think about them more so we thought, right. Let’s talk about it, but let’s start right at the beginning. What is a freedom of information request and how does it work
Steph Spyro (05:24):
So often? Shortened to FOIs
(05:30):
It uses the transparency laws and anyone, so not a journalist, anyone can request information from a public body public authority, so not privately owned companies. And there are certain exemptions. So you could go to them, ask for something and they say under, it could be national security laws, it could be if it exceeds certain cost limitations, but you could in theory ask for any information you feel is in the public interest. And that’s a key test of this and it’s a great way to get exclusive data, exclusive insights. And just a bit about behind the scenes working of a public authority.
Alessia Horwich (06:09):
What’s your experience of these being used in the newsroom?
Steph Spyro (06:12):
So I mean journalists use them all the time. The Thing is newsrooms are increasingly getting squeeze and squeeze and squeezed. And to do really good chunky fois, you might need to contact several bodies. It could be several police forces or several government departments, which sometimes just can take a lot of time, especially if you’ve got 1,001 other things to do. But if used well, I mean they are amazing tools for great exclusive data-driven stories. An amazing example that really brought FOI to light was the whole MPS expenses scandal. All of that was exposed through FOI laws. So newsrooms have been using them for ages and they’re an amazing tool for exclusive stories rooted in data. Official data.
Alessia Horwich (06:57):
Yeah. Have you done one?
Steph Spyro (06:59):
Oh my goodness, I do them all the time.
Alessia Horwich (07:00):
You do them all the time.
Steph Spyro (07:20):
Yeah
Alessia Horwich (07:01):
How do you decide, I mean I think this is probably the thing. How do you decide when you’re going to use them and what you’re going to use them for and what you’re going to ask for?
Steph Spyro (07:08):
Sometimes it’s just a spray and pray. Sometimes I think I could read something, I could hear something. And the thing about FOIs is there would be no other way to get ahold of that information. So it would be something that the public authority holds that I would not be able to access in another way. So, the FOI would be the only way of getting access to the data that I think a body has. So I’m all for a spray and pray method. Sometimes you just think there could be something in it. Public bodies are under pressure, they’re also squeezed. So, I don’t advocate for just being a bit whimsical with it and just unnecessarily submitting FOIs because that’s not what you want to either. That might not get a good story and it just put,
Alessia Horwich (07:52):
It’s wasting time.
Steph Spyro (06:35):
It’s wasting everyone’s time. Exactly. A great tool, but do it with an intention I think is the key to it.
Alessia Horwich (08:01):
Yeah, so I mean in the nuts and bolts of it, how do you actually do it? You just email an organisation and then you put out what exactly the information you’re requesting is?
Steph Spyro (08:09):
Yeah, so I think some you can post things over, but email is the way to go. If you go to an authorities’ website and just type in FOI plus the department or the police force or whatever that’s email address will pop up and you’ve got to be quite specific in your ask. There is a cost limitation as well. But the body has to tell you a how to refine your request. If it needs refining, they can help you make sure it’s under a limit. So they do have to help you and facilitate the request so they can’t just kind of outright deny it. If they think that your request will exceed the cost limits, then they will come back to you and say, if we just do this instead of this, it’ll bring it back down. Are they
Alessia Horwich (08:53):
Usually helpful in that way?
Steph Spyro (08:55):
Well, thankfully I have usually fallen within the constraints of requests, but they should be. And if someone comes back and isn’t helpful, then you have the right to push back and say, no, no, no, you’ve got to help me out here and tell me how to. Or you can put one line at the bottom of your FOI request saying if this exceeds the limit, please come back to me and tell me how to refine the request. So the body should help you.
Alessia Horwich (09:19):
I’m obviously thinking coming at this from the perspective of the PR a PR has two hurdles, then it’s got the person got to decide what they’re asking for and what the limits of that request are going to be. But they’re also trying to guess at what you would be interested into. So I’m assuming that probably a good way to go about this is to be collaborative with you. Do you agree?
Steph Spyro (09:38):
No, I don’t because I think it’s so easy to go to a journalist and say, I’m going to FOY this, but a journalist has 1,001 things to keep track of and that’s not yet a story. Because a body could come back, deny the request on, there’s a bunch of exemptions, not in the public interest security grounds. And then you’ve told this journalist you’re working on this thing and then it just doesn’t come to fruition. Sometimes technically FOIs should take 21 working days to come back. Sometimes it takes much, much longer. They have bodies have a right to an extension for instance, or reviews.
Alessia Horwich (10:12):
I mean for you that’s an incredibly long lead time, right?
Steph Spyro (10:14):
Well, exactly. And so it just doesn’t seem necessary, if I’m honest, to put that on a journalist’s radar before you’ve had anything back. And sometimes a body might come back after this whole process and say, they don’t even hold the data, please go to this body. So by that point you could be like six weeks down the line. So I would urge away from collaboration if I’m honest. I think the PR has to just have the sense to say, I think there’s something in this, but wait till you get data back, which proves that. And then you can form a story around that. Then go to a journalist and say, I’ve had this amazing FOI back, but until you’ve had that, I would steer clear.
Alessia Horwich (10:53):
You’ve got to work solo
Steph Spyro (10:54):
Yes. If you have a good relationship with a journalist, there’s no harm in saying, by the way, just put this on your radar. I’ve submitted this FOI, but I think you probably have to be quite friendly and dare I say even friends with journalists who register that. Otherwise I just think we have too much. I can’t keep track of what I’m keeping track of. Therefore wise I’m submitting. I can’t keep track of what OIS PR people are submitting.
Alessia Horwich (11:15):
No, the whole point of doing this is to help the journalist rather than put more on their plate.
Steph Spyro (11:20):
Yeah
Alessia Horwich (11:20):
It’s really about playing the long game then. So you’ve got to think 21 days ahead, you’ve got to pick up, but you’ve also got to pick out subjects that a journalist is interested in. For you personally, are there big themes that you’re always going to be looking for nice chunky data on?
Steph Spyro (11:34):
I mean you could honestly FOI anything. It could be if there’s something happening in the news, so someone FOI, the cost of cleaning up the spray paint on Angela Rainer’s Seaside flat in Brighton, or the cost of cleaning up the Banksy mural outside the Royal Courts of Justice. So that’s interesting because there’s a new story there and there’s a follow up in that, like the cost to the taxpayer of cleaning that up. Some of the FOIs I received from PRS could be sick days in various government departments or one we did recently was cyber attacks or phishing emails to the OBR ahead of the budgets. So there’s ways of doing it, knowing what’s coming up or what has happened in the news and using those as hooks for FOIs.
Alessia Horwich (12:21):
This sounds to me like something really fun and creative that PRS could get their teeth into. I mean those ones that you’ve just kind of made, they’re
Steph Spyro (12:21):
All really interesting and they’re all linked back to clients or the clients had something to promote along those lines. So it’s a really good way of getting a journalist and exclusive data that no one else has and then the PR can do what the PR has to do, which is promote the client.
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Alessia Horwich (13:36):
Tell me about the exclusive element. How should an exclusively pitched you? What’s the kind of etiquette around it and what elements of it can go wrong?
Steph Spyro (13:43):
So I think if you’re talking in terms of FOIs, I don’t think an FY always has to be an exclusive. You can go out widely with an FOI, but it depends what kind of coverage goals the PR has on that. But if you’re going to go with someone exclusively, it’s kind of no kite flying, don’t go to a few to try register interest saying you’ve done this FOI, this is what it’s come back. And then waiting for the first journalist to bite not quite how it works. You go to one, you stick with one, you wait till you’ve heard back from one, and then you decide to approach others if needed. And then the FOI, you still need to abide by the rules of a general pitch, which is build it up. So make it oven ready. So have the quotes, are you going to offer an op-ed? Is there a case study? You keep those pitchings and that all helps build up and exclusive.
Alessia Horwich (14:31):
And that all has to go in the email when it’s delivered to you, it’s tadda ready in a package.
Steph Spyro (14:35):
I mean, not always. If it’s a strong FOI then I will decide, that looks quite interesting. If I pitch it on this day, it could get this kind of showing in print online. And so I will need a case study, I will need an op-ed and I can go back and help build that up. But if you make it obvious it’s an exclusive and you’ve got that FOI data and it’s good, solid, strong data, I think a Jonas is quite likely to
And then can decide how to build that up for that publication.
Alessia Horwich (15:04):
I also assume that before you’re even making these FOI requests, you need to be thinking about the audience you want to reach. Because if they’re looking at an issue that’s important to your audience, then that makes sense to come and give it to you. But potentially, if it’s something that’s much for a younger audience or less well off or more left leaning, then they need to be thinking about other publications or other types of
Steph Spyro (15:27):
Requests. Yeah, sure. Or different way of how you’d pitch a story. So you should have an intention behind asking that specific question for the FOI and then have an idea I, and you could be completely surprised when you get that FOI back, you could say, oh wow, this is completely different to what I was expecting. Let’s completely pivot. So that’s why, again, I wouldn’t promise things before data comes through because you might get an answer back that’s like, oh, okay, actually this completely changes the angle, but you’ve already discussed it with one outlet, so that’s just not the way of doing it.
Alessia Horwich (15:58):
Yeah, that makes sense.
Steph Spyro (15:59):
So yeah, kind of hold fire and it’ll take 21 days to get the data back, but then if it’s really, really chunky, then you’ll need the time to go through that, go the stats. I mean, we even had a case where allegedly a council said they actually, because of human error sent out the wrong statistics in an FOI. So the PR had done the FOI always asked for the raw FOI as well. You always want to be able to send that over to the journalists to check that ourselves. And then when we went and checked it with the council, they were like, oh no, the stats are wrong. So it takes time. It’s a process fault.
Alessia Horwich (16:36):
That’s really bad for the PR, isn’t it? It must have put it’s,
Steph Spyro (16:39):
But I don’t even think it was their fault.
Alessia Horwich (16:40):
No, no. I mean fault,
Steph Spyro (16:42):
Nothing to do with. But again, it’s not the story the PR then came to me with because the statistics have completely changed. So yeah, FOIs are quite, there’s more to it than meets the eye.
Alessia Horwich (16:53):
Yeah. I’m interested on digging into how you brainstorm the kind of FOIs you’re going to do. I know you said you sort of spray and pray, but I mean if you’re sitting as a PR, I guess if you were the PR, how would you go about it?
Steph Spyro (17:09):
I would have to know what my client’s intentions are. What are my clients trying? If I have a cybersecurity client, what kind of cyber if or wise can I put through? It’s very tailored to, because I would have to be thinking about my clients here and what they’re trying to promote. So there’s no point doing is on something, niche on pensions if that’s just not where your clients are at. That could be really, really interesting and helps. Maybe if you have an FOI idea, it could help build relationships as journalists, but if the goal is to promote a client and get client coverage, then doing something that’s just completely unrelated to them, not the way to go. I would say just read widely and if you see data in a publication, just think what follow-ups are there or oh, that’s quite interesting, but is it possible to get access to this data or this report, this documentation?
(17:56):
It’s just trying to think quite laterally about what already exists. You don’t necessarily need to reinvent the wheel or if a client has heard something going on, you can FOI for that, for meeting minutes for certain documents around how policies are made. So it is just using the insight you have because it has to start something, it’s very often not just some random out of the air idea, it’s got a basis in something and it’s just taking what you’ve read, what you’ve heard that one step further and thinking, ah, if I have this data, does this data exist?
Alessia Horwich (18:31):
And this is very much linked to moving the story on which jJournalists are always talking to me about that kind of elusive, how do you do it? And this is actually, it’s a really good mechanism for doing that, isn’t it?
Steph Spyro (18:41):
Yeah, it’s a good follow up.
Alessia Horwich (18:42):
And it’s sort of like risk-free in a way because you’re making the FOI and if it doesn’t turn out to be anything, you’ve not really lost anything.
Steph Spyro (18:49):
Exactly
Alessia Horwich (18:50):
Maybe 21 days, but you can do a few at the same time.
Steph Spyro (18:51):
Yeah, exactly
Alessia Horwich (18:53):
Are there any pitfalls with FOIs that you have learned from doing them that you could help PRs avoid
Steph Spyro (19:00):
Pitfalls. I mean, just make sure that they’re crafts the written really well. I think take,
Alessia Horwich (19:06):
What does that mean? Well, does that mean clearly?
Steph Spyro (19:08):
Very clearly? Because you don’t want to ask for one thing or think you’re asking for one thing and then actually the answer comes back and it’s completely different because your request wasn’t quite clear. So I would put time in to be very explicit with what you’re asking.
Alessia Horwich (19:24):
How long can a request you want to keep it short though? Don’t you as well mean
Steph Spryo (19:27):
It’s long. I mean there’s no limits in that regard, but chances are if it’s really quite long, then you’re going to exceed your limits cost limit. And also my thinking is you probably don’t understand what you’re asking for if it gets quite wordy and long because you’re kind of babbling on.
Alessia Horwich (19:42):
That’s a good point.
Steph Spyro (19:43):
So if it feels concise, it’s quite clear what you’re asking for less likely to be misinterpreted. I think another pitfall is just you dunno what the story will be when you get it back and there might not be a story. So I think it’s so easy to put an FOI and be like, oh my goodness, I just submitted this great FOI and then they just don’t hold the data. There’s an exemption and there’s sometimes you can then go to the ICO information commissioner on that and do reviews. You can ask for internal reviews, but I think a pitfall is just sometimes they don’t always show what you think they’re going to show or they just take longer than you think they’re going to take.
Alessia Horwich (20:20):
I guess in that scenario, try not to be disheartened and keep going.
Steph Spyro (20:23):
Yeah, yeah.
Alessia Horwich (20:24):
Or think where else could I get this information or is there something, another body that could provide something that would illuminate this?
Steph Spyro (20:30):
And they would usually tell you actually they do need to help you out with that. So if you’ve gone to the wrong department, for instance, if it’s government, they will then have to point you to the right department.
Alessia Horwich (20:39):
It’s funny because the way you’re describing it, I sort of imagine them to be these very helpful people who are really wanting to get you what you want. And I imagine the reality that is not the same.
Steph Spyro (20:46):
No. So technically who’s sending it shouldn’t matter,
(20:50):
But you always have to use your full legal name, you can’t use an alias and funny, I dunno, funny names like Elvis Presley or whatever. Not that that’s a funny name, but you get the point a name that’s not your own. And the thing is, I think very often they will look up journalists for instance, if we’re doing them and are more likely to be purposely obstructive because they know there’s a chance that that will get published. And that could be the same for PRs. If PRs used an email and then authority catches on that, that then ends up in the press then technically on paper. I mean it shouldn’t matter who’s submitting the request. But that does absolutely play into probably the information that they will put out there.
Alessia Horwich (21:33):
One other thing that I noted to talk to you about was trawling through FOIs that have already been published and whether there’s value in that.
Steph Spyro (21:40):
Yeah, I think absolutely they can be. So there’s one website called What do they Know? There’s a lot of FOIs that get published on that. If someone’s got the time to go through them, then yeah, absolutely. And those are more likely to be submitted by members of the public. So people that just have genuine concern about an issue locally or even nationally as opposed to, I think journalists and prs because that will kind of come to our inboxes. So yeah, if there are FOIs out there that’s available, then go for it. It’s in the public domain. So
Alessia Horwich (22:09):
It might give you a good idea for sort of more granular stories that are more tethered to a specific community that you could then move on or pitch to you.
Steph Spyro (22:17):
Well, it gives you an idea of what people are interested in. And that could be a springboard into other FOIs who saying, ah, this person FOI, this body, they got this back. Let’s try for this. So it can be helpful in brainstorming as well.
Alessia Horwich (22:31):
And ultimately, are you interested in what the general public is interested in? The
Steph Spyro (22:35):
Journalists? Oh my goodness, yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. That is our audience. And if someone else cares about something, chances are there will be others who care about it too. So yeah. Oh my goodness. Absolutely. Yeah, I absolutely care what the public thinks, what they’re into. Yeah, for sure.
Alessia Horwich (22:48):
Brilliant. Well look, we’re at the end of these podcasts. We always try to do these quick recap things. So in your opinion, what other three main takeaways about FOI requests and PRs
Steph Spyro (22:59):
Do them if you’re not doing them already? I’d start there. I think it’s an underutilised tool. Start with that. I would say do not approach a journalist before you’ve had an FOI response back. Just limit expectations both externally and internally, only internally. And they can just take a lot longer than you thinks.
Alessia Horwich (23:19):
So be prepared. Play the long game.
Steph Spyro (23:20):
Yeah.
Alessia Horwich (23:21):
When you’re pitching it to you, three golden rules
Steph Spyro (23:23):
Make it clear that it’s an FOI. And if it’s exclusive,
Alessia Horwich (23:27):
Should that be in the subject line for you?
Steph Spyro (23:29):
Yeah. Yeah. I think if FOIs usually come back with pretty good data. If it’s an exclusive, it means you’ve gone to the journalist and no one else will have that. That is all worth selling. Absolutely. I would attach the original response. I personally always want to see that and I check that out myself. So I think that’s good. I don’t know that you necessarily have to do it in your initial email to a journalist though, because if there’s interest, they’ll come back to you and then you can, but maybe flag that it is available. I think that’s good for transparency. And my third takeaway on effort wise coming to journalists would be keep in mind how to build it up into a bigger package, an oven ready package. So think you don’t necessarily need to offer it there and then, but just be ready if the Jonas says, do you have spokespeople? Do you have an op-ed? Do you have something else that can add to this? And just make that story a bit bigger. Journalists should also be able to do that themselves, but just be ready in case a journalist does turn around and say, actually this would be really helpful. Do you have that too?
Alessia Horwich (24:26):
Yeah. I mean, anything that PR can do to help you guys do your job quicker or more efficiently is a win for everybody.
Steph Spyro (24:32):
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that’s all helpful.
Alessia Horwich (24:34):
Steph, thank you so much. This has been such an interesting chat. I hope you’re going to be flooded now with FOI requests.
Steph Spyro (24:39):
Amazing
Alessia Horwich (24:39):
We get some juicy stories from them.
Steph Spyro (24:40):
Please do send them to my inbox. Thank you so much.
