How to pitch personal narrative stories with Olivia Petter

Alessia Horwich (00:07):

Welcome to On the Rox, a podcast from Roxhill Media that asks some of the best journalists in the UK for their answers to the questions that confront PRs daily. We know there’s not a one size fits all way of communicating with journalists, so we’re going direct to the writers in the newsroom to find out how they like to work with PRs and how to stand out in their inboxes. My name is Alessia Horwich. I’m a former Sunday Times journalist, now head of brand at Roxhill. Today we’re going to be talking about how to pitch personal narrative stories with Olivia Petter, relationships writer at the Independent. Actually, we’ve not met before, but so tell me a litle bit about you. How did you get into … It was lovely to meet you. How did you get into journalism?

Olivia Petter (00:48):

So I did English literature at Bristol University and then I did lots of work experience when I was there for basically anyone and everyone that would have me. And there was quite a lot of good work placement programmes in place when I was at uni. So I did one at The Week. I did one at the FT. I did one at the Times Magazine and then I did a fashion PR internship and all of this just I think really helped gather experience. And then I got an internship at Vogue. They used to do these three week internships there for graduates and I did that as soon as I graduated Bristol. When I was there, someone in the team said I should go and speak to HR to see if they had any job openings. So I did that. They had nothing in editorial, but they had a role in the communications office.

(01:38):

So it was a maternity cover. They actually offered it to someone else at first because I had very little experience other than like six weeks in a fashion PR company as an intern. But then the person they offered it to said no. They gave it to me and I did that for a year, which was incredible just learning about the cogs of Conde Nast within its comms team because you were working across all of the magazines like Vogue, GQ, Tatler, Glamour. And then from there I got a six month digital internship at British Vogue and just tried to write as much as I could, even though the job was mainly kind of admin based. And then a job came up at the independent to be a lifestyle reporter and I got very lucky and I got that writing primarily human interest stories and a lot of royal family stuff.

(02:32):

But it was really good training, particularly for kind of breaking news stories and you just learn how to write clean, tight copy very, very quickly and under immense pressure. And then I was at the independent as a full-time lifestyle reporter for about six or seven years before going freelance.

Alessia Horwich (02:50):

Do you think that your experience through that has influenced the kind of publications you like to read now?

Olivia Petter (02:55):

Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think I read mostly lifestyle journalism for sure, but I read as much as I can. I mean, I’m a voracious reader. I think you kind of have to be. So I read most of the national newspapers as much as I can, Bits and Bobs and all of the magazines really. And I love the American websites like The Cut and The New York Times and Vulture and The Atlantic, The New Yorker. I mean, they’re amazing. I do quite a lot of mentoring for younger journalists and I always tell them to just read as much as you can because if you want to learn how to write, that is the best way I think.

Alessia Horwich (03:37):

But it’s also, that’s really applicable for PRs too, right? You’ve got to read as much as you

Olivia Petter (03:42):

Can. Yeah, totally. I mean, I think it’s so important and I’m always amazed sometimes at sometimes the pitches I’ll get and I’ll just be like, “Do you read A, the things I write and B, the publication you’re pitching this to? ” Because that would never appear on one of those publications. So it is the most helpful tip, I think. But what people are publishing is changing all the time because the algorithms are changing all the time and social media is changing all the time and no one really understands how it works in terms of what gets boosted and what doesn’t. So we’re sort of all trying to learn how to cater to this mysterious thing.

Alessia Horwich (04:20):

It must be really useful for you to have that background in PR while that first kind of view. I totally, yeah. Because I mean, how do you build your relationships with PRs now knowing what you know from the other side?

Olivia Petter (04:30):

It’s really helpful to meet people in person. That for me is always the most helpful thing because then I can tell people in more detail what I write, what I enjoy writing about and how I like to receive pitches and when it’s most effective and efficient for me to receive a pitch and the kind of stuff I need to get a story over the line because I’m not a commissioner, I’m pitching everything and it’s really helpful. I mean, emails are just so difficult for me because you just, I mean, we all get so many emails so it’s very hard for me to really detail and email why a story didn’t work or why a pitch didn’t work or what I’m really looking for. Whereas if a PR comes to me and says, “Let’s go for a coffee,” then that’s much more helpful and I can kind of explain in person, “Okay, these are the kind of things I write about.

(05:17):

This is what I need to get something over the line. This is what my editors will like. This is what this publication is looking for. ” Different publications are looking for different things from me as a freelancer as well. So I think that’s also quite important nuance to explain that again, it’s just so much easier to describe in person than in an email. I just don’t have the time to put that in an email.

Alessia Horwich (05:37):

It’s such useful intel though, definitely. So tell me a little bit about when you started writing about yourself, because we’re talking today about personal stories.

Olivia Petter (05:45):

So I probably started writing about myself when I did my first book and the promotion around that book and that was Millennial Love and that came out in 2021 and it was published by Fourth Estate and it’s a memoir and a mix of interviews and social commentary. So that was the first time I kind of wrote in real depth about myself, but then to promote the book I had to do lots of other articles around it. And so that was the first time I did really in depth first person journalism.

Alessia Horwich (06:16):

What kind of topics were you hitting with those pieces?

Olivia Petter (06:18):

So it was all about romantic love, but through this kind of feminist lens and I did a few pieces about contraception, STIs, violence against women and just dating stuff.

Alessia Horwich (06:33):

How did you feel about doing it? I mean, was it scary?

Olivia Petter (06:35):

It was, but I was so young that I just didn’t care. I mean, how old was I? I was 2021. I’m about to turn 32, so 26.

Alessia Horwich (06:47):

Yeah. So did you feel kind of insulated from it just because?

Olivia Petter (06:50):

Yeah, I just think you just don’t care. You kind of just go for it at that age and you just … Also, I was a bit naive. I just didn’t really think that people were going to read what I was writing. I mean, I learned the hard way because I wrote a piece about stealthing, which is non-consensual condom removal, which was a story that I featured in my book, wrote a piece about it for the Sunday Times. The piece went viral and was very, very widely read. It’s still, I think, to date the most red piece I’ve ever written to the point where The Times used it in their advertising.

Alessia Horwich (07:21):

Gosh.

Olivia Petter (07:22):

So had I known how widely read that piece would have been, I probably wouldn’t have written it just because it’s obviously such a vulnerable subject, but ultimately I know that it helped a lot of women and I received so many messages from women who told me that my story made them realise that they had also been sexually assaulted and that they felt so much more validated from having read my experience and obviously that’s the most meaningful thing you can hope to do with your work as a journalist. So it was worth it, but it was scary. And I think as I’ve got older, I do still write about myself, but I do it in a very careful way and I’m much more aware that people will read what I write.

Alessia Horwich (08:05):

Yeah. It’s really interesting because obviously the traditional thing is that the journalist is not the story. Yeah, exactly. You’ve got to keep yourself out of it. But I think I left the newsroom in 2019 and even then it was really becoming a thing, these personal stories. Why do you think that readers are so interested in personal stories now? What is it that they’re connecting to?

Olivia Petter (08:25):

Well, I actually think it’s because of social media and I think that just more generally we are much more interested in people’s personal narratives than we are in a sort of wordy feature article, which I would love to write, but I know from what people read and what gets read, it is first person stories. I think people just want to feel connected to other people. We’re so siloed in our little kind of social media bubbles that I think we want to hear from real people and hear their real voices about their real experiences, whether it’s about dating or health issues or mental health or loneliness. We want to feel like our own experiences that maybe we feel too ashamed to talk about or to open up to friends about we can actually, “Oh, we read someone else is going through that. Okay, maybe I’m not completely alone.” There’s a way of writing a first person piece that is still like a reported piece of journalism and often that’s kind of what I’m doing.

(09:29):

If I’m writing a piece about myself, it’s to kind of speak to like a wider trend that’s going on and I’m sort of the case study that I’m using to illustrate that and then weaving in facts and research.

Alessia Horwich (09:40):

Yeah. Tell me, because that’s one of the questions I sort of had is like, what is the difference between a personal story, an opinion piece and a case study?

Olivia Petter (09:46):

Yeah.

Alessia Horwich (09:46):

Do they all kind of meld into one in this new format or?

Olivia Petter (09:49):

A little bit. Yeah. I think particularly with opinion and personal stories, I mean, a lot of the time I sometimes write an opinion column for the Independence Voices section and I’m very much encouraged to weave in my own experiences. And it’s not necessarily about, well, tell us your trauma. It’s more like show us this opinion in action, like show us why this is something that you relate to and why this is something you think you have a strong view on.

Alessia Horwich (10:18):

I thought it was quite interesting looking at some of your stuff on the indie, that a lot of those things are premium articles. So actually the publication is saying this is really valuable content to us. This is what readers are actually willing to pay for.

Olivia Petter (10:31):

Yeah. I mean, I’m pleased that that’s how it seems. I mean, that’s definitely how I hope it comes across. I mean, some of my favourite … I mean, look, my favourite pieces to write are features that are about other people that are not about me. That is what I find the most rewarding. I mean, the piece that I am the proudest of in the last year, two pieces. One was a piece about the parents of children with disabilities and really speaking to them about the harrowing realities of that and kind of shedding light on their experiences and then a piece on postpartum psychosis, which is something that people still know so little about.

Alessia Horwich (11:09):

Do you think that, because the difference between writing a personal story and writing that, because those are personal stories, it’s just your report in there. I’m not the

Olivia Petter (11:15):

Person,

Alessia Horwich (11:15):

Yes. Is it that a personal story is written in the first person?

Olivia Petter (11:18):

Yes. And the thing is sometimes I’ll write a ghosted first person piece and again, this is where it gets confusing with the terminology because that’s a case study, right? So that’s a case study who I’ve interviewed and I’ve spoken to on the phone and over email and then I’ve written up their experience in their voice, but I’m the one that’s writing it. But essentially everything that

(11:40):

Editors want is about personal stories. It doesn’t have to be the writer’s personal story. It can be a case studies, personal story, but that’s what makes a piece sparkle is real life stories and it’s hard. I mean, today I was writing a piece about the taxi cab dating theory, which is about it actually comes from Sex and the City about how men one day their commitment- Turn the light on. Turn around, turn their light on and then will marry the person who happens to be in front of them at the time. And it’s about how important timing is and how sometimes timing is more important than compatibility. Whereas women will typically make themselves ready for the right person, but men aren’t as likely to do that. So it’s all this theory behind it, which sounds a bit reductive, but when you speak to men about it and that was what I was tasked with doing, my editor wanted me to speak to men about what they thought about this theory.

(12:38):

That’s a really hard thing to find a case study for, but you end up, I go to men’s mental health charities and then end up speaking to men who work at those charities and that was actually really helpful.

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Alessia Horwich (13:48):

Actually, this is one thing I was going to ask you. Is this personal story thing just a female thing or is it for men and women?

Olivia Petter (13:54):

Well, I think we would all love to read more stories from the male perspective, particularly about dating. I mean, I certainly would, but it’s men aren’t writing those pieces. They’re just not. And there is definitely a cliched thing of women being asked to kind of spill their guts a lot more than men are. And there was a really good essay that Caroline O’Donoghue wrote for the bookseller about this exact topic last year about how female novelists are often asked to write pieces about themselves when they’re promoting their books, whereas male novelists never are. And so there is definitely a degree of sexism there.

Alessia Horwich (14:32):

Do you think editors would be more likely to commission something that’s a male led piece?

Olivia Petter (14:36):

Definitely. I mean, that’s what I wrote today. My editor wasn’t interested in hearing about that from a woman’s perspective. She wanted to hear about it from a man’s perspective and I agree with her. That’s the more interesting angle. So definitely interested in more male personal narratives for sure. I think everyone wants a lot more of that.

Alessia Horwich (14:51):

I mean, personal stories, they are so important now. I mean, you’ve outlined loads of reasons why. As a PR coming to being told this, you’re like, right, okay, fine, but how am I supposed to capitalise on this? Where am I supposed to start? If I want to tell a personal story about a client or about a brand, where would you advise them to kind of start?

Olivia Petter (15:11):

Well, first of all, read other personal stories and newspapers and magazines and se what kind of things people are publishing. And I would think about a potential headline off the get- go. Think about a standout quote from your case study that could work as a headline, something that would really draw a reader in immediately something that really gets to the bones of what that experience or story is about and try and package it up in the most headline friendly way possible because that’s what will get an editor’s attention, what will get a writer’s attention because that’s what we’re all trying to do really is come up with the most eye-catching headlines. You must

Alessia Horwich (15:51):

Know that, particularly because you’ve got to sell your stories into your editors.

Olivia Petter (15:54):

Yeah. And the thing is, that’s not to say that we’re writing sensationalised pieces, we’re not, but if it doesn’t grab you immediately and people aren’t going to click on it. What’s going to get us to actually click on an article instead of just browsing through various reels? It has to be really powerful and impactful off the get- go. We want stories that we haven’t heard a million times before, stories that are new, stories that are fresh, stories that are different, offering a new perspective on maybe a topic we’ve covered before, but it’s a different take. So often I’ll get pitched things and it’s like the reality of adult acne, it’s like I’ve read that before a million times. It needs to be something different and it’s hard, don’t get me wrong, it is hard, but if it’s not something new and it’s not newsworthy and it’s not attached to any data or stat that is surprising or interesting, then it’s not going to get commissioned.

Alessia Horwich (16:52):

Gosh, it’s quite difficult, isn’t it? Because you’ve got to find this personal narrative and you’ve got to have some other hook. Do you think that the best thing a PR can do is really get to know their client and get to know the people who are using it, the brand, or evolve with the brand, or who the author that’s written the book or the … One of the ones we get asked about is travel, like trips that are for a specific type of person at a specific time of their life. Is it about knowing the journalists that write for a specific publication and knowing who they are and what they like?

Olivia Petter (17:23):

Yeah. And also knowing the kind of pieces that they get commissioned to write, because I mean, I love travel journalism. I’ve done a few pieces, but I’m not going to get commissioned to write an expert’s guide to Tokyo because I’ve never been to Tokyo before. Whereas if it’s some sort of weird dating travel trend, then I probably will get commissioned that piece because that’s what editors are looking for from me. So I think actually knowing the journalists that you’re pitching to is really helpful and knowing their body of work is really, really valuable, which goes back to what I said about meeting people in person. I think those personal relationships really help because also then I know every time I get an email from that person, I’ve met that person, I am more likely just bied into human nature to open that email and take what they’ve said seriously because I’ve met that person face to face and particularly, we’re all just sitting behind our laptops.

(18:19):

We want to meet. We want to meet in person, have chats. It’s nice.

Alessia Horwich (18:23):

I do also think that this person narrative thing isn’t going away.

Olivia Petter (18:26):

No.

Alessia Horwich (18:26):

And if you can build the foundations of a relationship now with people in your career, if you’re kind of just starting out or if you’re a senior account manager, whatever, then you can grow with that person and there’s more person narratives to be told throughout the life of a journalist potentially.

Olivia Petter (18:41):

Yeah, totally. Because that’s what it’s all about really is like, how does this product or brand relate to me as a human being? Show me why it’s important through someone else’s story. That’s what we need.

Alessia Horwich (18:56):

Do you think that personal narratives are dealt with in the same way across the media? I mean, is there anyone who’s not doing it?

Olivia Petter (19:03):

No, I don’t think so. Maybe the FT a little bit less, but everyone else is … Yeah, and more and more. I think even publications that maybe would have turned their nose up at it in the past are now on board, because we just know what clicks.

Alessia Horwich (19:19):

But also there’s a sort of flip side to it too, isn’t there, for the PR, that they’ve got this sort of duty of care. What does that involve do you think from your side?

Olivia Petter (19:28):

Well, if it’s a very sensitive subject, then we offer anonymity for a case study. If it’s really sensitive, change identifying factors so that they’re not even identifiable at all. But I think anonymity is really important and just sensitive handling of issues. I mean, I wrote … And also just using your human nature. I mean, I wrote a piece about, there was a study that came out about the suicide rates of new fathers and it was something astonishingly high and I spoke to through the charity Home Start was put in touch with a father who had been very suicidal and did a sort of very long interview with him and he was willing to be named, which was really incredible because he really wanted to help raise awareness. But obviously that is just something that is handled very delicately and that is … I mean, really it’s the responsibility of the journalist in a way, but also I suppose the responsibility of the PR to make sure that that story is being handled by the best possible person by someone with empathy and so on.

(20:34):

Yeah,

Alessia Horwich (20:34):

Because I was going to say, if there’s a complaint, it’s the PR who’s going to have to field it first. With that story, I mean, we’ve been asked recently about case studies and personal narratives and comments and how the comments are kind of policed and dealt with. I mean, was it for a publication where you knew what the …

Olivia Petter (20:51):

That was for the independent and I’m fairly certain the comments were turned off. Turned off, yeah. Yeah. I think we do that for sensitive pieces. I think that’s standard procedure at most publications as well. I mean, whenever I’ve written pieces for the times that are on those sorts of issues, similarly, comments get turned off. Whenever I’ve written about sexual violence, comments are turned off, but it’s always worth double checking, but you would hope that that is the case at most publications.

Alessia Horwich (21:18):

Yeah. Okay. Well, let’s talk about pitching a personal narrative to you. You’ve already said you need this headline, you need this one line. What else is helpful in that email and does it matter when it’s sent to you?

Olivia Petter (21:31):

The morning is always the best.

Alessia Horwich (21:33):

Always the morning,

Olivia Petter (21:33):

Okay. Always the morning, the earlier the better, because that’s typically when I’m pitching pieces. I start my shifts at the Indie at 8:00 AM. I have until 8:30 to send my ideas. Right, gosh. So that gives you a taste of how early. So the earlier the better or the day before maybe and research is always really, really helpful. If there is any kind of stat or recent study that you can put in your email or put in the headline to help illustrate why this is important now, the hook doesn’t have to be research. It could also be pop culture. It could be like, this thing just happened in Euphoria that everyone is talking about on the internet. Here’s how it relates to real life because of this, this, this, and this. It just has to be something that people are talking about now. I do think that the bar is actually just getting higher and higher and higher for what is going to stand out and that’s purely because our attention is being stretched more and more and more.

Alessia Horwich (22:36):

If a PR is trying to get you to do something because they think you’re the right person to write it, how can they express that to you in their pitch email? Should they say, “I’ve read this piece that you’ve done and I think that my client has this other thing that relates to that. I think it would be perfect for you. ” Or is that too much? Is it more like-

Olivia Petter (22:54):

It’s not too much. It’s helpful, but if I’m honest with you, it doesn’t really matter. If you know that I am someone that’s going to be interested in that story, you pitching me that story is already going to work. You don’t need to butter me up. It makes no difference.

Alessia Horwich (23:15):

If you were a PR and you were trying to get a personal narrative story commissioned that had something to do with your brand or a book you were promoting or a holiday you were trying to get someone to go on, what are the three things you would say you would advise them that they need to do?

Olivia Petter (23:29):

Yeah. I mean, a strong headline, why this story now? Is it in the news? Is it something that’s an issue that is being spoken about on social media or in a popular TV show or film? And I suppose, yeah, why me? Is it because you’ve read pieces I’ve written about violence against women in the past and you know that this is something I care about and will talk about and have personal experience of because I’ve written about it, in which case perfect. Equally, I’ve written a lot about contraception and very interested in emergency contraception and abortions and the morning after pill. If you’ve seen, you’ve read a piece, I’ve written about that, you don’t need to tell me that you’ve read a piece I’ve written about that because I know I wrote the piece, but if you think that if you’ve read it and you have something that is relevant to it, then bring it to me, that’s great.