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Alessia Horwich (00:07):
Welcome to on the Rox, a podcast from Roxhill Media that asks some of the best journalists in the UK for their solutions to the kind of dilemmas that confront PRs daily. We know that’s not a one size fits all way of communicating with journalists, so we’re going out to the writers in the newsroom to hear how they like to work with PRs and how to stand out in their inboxes. My name is Alessia Horwich. I’m a former Sunday Times journalist now the brand director at Roxhill. Today we’re going to be talking about how to pitch op-eds to City AM with Opinion and Features editor Alice Denby. Alice, thank you so much for coming in. It’s exciting to speak to you. Before we get into the City AM thing and lots of big opinions, tell me a little bit about you. How did you get into journalism and I mean, how did you end up being the opinion editor and features editor at City AM?
Alys Denby (00:53):
It was quite a diagonal route to be honest. So I first got the idea about entering journalism at university when a tutor, and I think he meant this as an insult, said that my essay was written in quite a journalistic style and I was like, oh, great. Sort of snappy and fluid. I think he probably just meant short and superficial, but so from there I sort of did some writing for the local paper. I honestly thought I would end up more of an arts journalist. I did play reviews and that sort of thing at uni. Then after that I did a couple of internships and in fact, I ended up interning with you Alessia
Alessia Horwich (01:26):
Yes
Alys Denby (01:27):
At a website called Money Magpie long time ago. Then I did the City MA, as many people do, did the Daily Mail trainee scheme. Hated working at the Daily Mail,
Alessia Horwich (01:39):
Did you? Gosh,
Alys Denby (01:39):
Yes. And also just started getting really interested in politics. So I then decided to jack journalism in and got a job working for an MP. Did that for five years. Super interesting, amazing time, but a lot changed in that period. It was,
Alessia Horwich (01:55):
What was that period? 2015 to 2020.
Alys Denby (01:59):
So I left.
Alessia Horwich (01:59):
Oh my gosh,
Alys Denby (01:59):
Yeah
Alessia Horwich (02:00):
What a time.
Alys Denby (02:01):
I know it was quite a time. It was really interesting to be there, but I feel like I left at about the right time. It was just as Boris Johnson became Prime Minister, so I was glad to be out of it during that slightly chaotic period. And then from there I got a job at a website called CapEx, which is a sort of magazine of think tank that was founded by Margaret Thatcher called the Centre of Policy Studies. So kind of combining politics and journalism there and from there I got this job at City AM. So yeah, quite a circuitous route,
Alessia Horwich (02:28):
Yeah, but also bringing lots of different sources and experience to this role, which is great because I think the diversity of the voices that you are reflecting is rich, and that’s probably the key to why your section shines, do you think?
Alys Denby (02:41):
I hope so. I also think in journalism it’s really important to have some sort of real word experience or have something that you’re deeply knowledgeable about, and I suppose for me, that probably is more of the policy in Westminster world, but in my job at City AM, I’m obviously across the business world as well, but these two things crucially really intersect.
Alessia Horwich (03:00):
Yeah. So tell me a bit about the voices that you’re looking for for your section.
Alys Denby (03:04):
What I always look for is something that reflects the values of City AM which are essentially pro-business, but it’s in the sense that we believe that business is an engine for growth. We believe that London is the UK’s most important economic asset, but we don’t believe that business is just about enriching a wealthy elite. We believe that business is about jobs, it’s about growth, it’s about helping the whole country, and also that it’s about stories. When you talk to founders and entrepreneurs, they often have amazing stories for how they came up with their ideas or how they saw it through. So I always look for a voice that sort of reflects those values. I mean also people who, it sounds really simple, but people who have an opinion
Alessia Horwich (03:43):
Yeah.
Alys Denby (03:46):
Sometimes that can be hard to find in business because often, especially I think the bigger the company you are, the more afraid you are of treading on toes or putting people’s backs up. So sometimes it’s much more interesting for me to have say a founder from a tiny startup who has a real passion or a real point they want to make or something they’re really angry about, and those are the voices I kind of like to platform.
Alessia Horwich (04:08):
I mean, that must be a gift when somebody’s incensed about something and this something drops into your inbox, you’re like, Hello.
Alys Denby (04:13):
Yes, it’s perfect. But you see this a lot. Often the way regulations are made, they don’t necessarily think of the unintended consequences. So there might be a huge way that this affects a certain sector that they just haven’t thought about. So I mean the big one for us at the moment is how things like the increase in the national living wage, workers’ rights and the national insurance increases massively affecting sectors like hospitality, which is so important for the vitality of London and have such huge knock-on effects for high streets and so on everywhere. I mean also likewise for things like hairdressers, for childcare, all of those smaller businesses, the wider economy really relies on. So those again, are the sort of things that we like to highlight. What is the government not seeing here and what should it be looking at?
Alessia Horwich (04:59):
That’s quite interesting because potentially those types of businesses are not ones that you would associate with City AM, but you are saying that actually that’s really important for building out the wider economic picture.
Alys Denby (05:09):
Yeah, I think that the bigger businesses, as you say, the big city businesses are less affected and more able to absorb these kind of changes, but they are extremely affected by the halo effect. So women, for example, very badly affected by problems with childcare, by how expensive it is, by how hard it is to find, but also I think we care deeply about the vitality of London and London being a great place to work and build a career and start a business and raise a family, and if it’s not fun,
Alessia Horwich (05:39):
Yeah
Alys Denby (05:39):
Then that’s a problem for us.
Alessia Horwich (05:41):
Yeah, I mean London is really important because I guess that if a PR is pitching to you, they might be dealing with a company that operates nationally and they have to find that London angle. Is that a real tell when you’re getting a pitch? If London is not mentioned, is it a real turnoff immediately?
Alys Denby (05:55):
Yes and no. I mean, essentially, yes, I am always really looking for a London angle, but then sometimes there will be things, it depends on the person that are from outside London that I will look at. So for example, we had an op-ed recently from the Mayor of the West Midlands when there was that big real estate conference that was on up in Leeds, but that obviously has wider relevance to London as well. So I mean, I do take things with an outside London angle.
Alessia Horwich (06:22):
I mean, when that was pitched to you, did you have to bring that London angle or had they thought of that?
Alys Denby (06:27):
Because there was this big conference on that lots of people involved in planning and development and so on would’ve been at, they wanted to read about it, it was relevant, it was topical in that sense,
Alessia Horwich (06:39):
Yeah
Alys Denby (06:39):
We are interested in the wider UK economy if there’s another region that’s getting things really right. For example, I would love to hear from somewhere that is managing to build great infrastructure that does have great nightlife. I mean, another good example, we had an op-ed this week from Sasha Lord who was advisor to Andy Burner in Manchester, and I think Manchester has got a lot of things right on the nighttime economy that London could learn from.
Alessia Horwich (07:03):
Yeah
Alys Denby (07:03):
I would look at something like that definitely.
Alessia Horwich (07:05):
How important are the pegs to you? You can’t just be featuring random CEOs saying stuff whenever
Alys Denby (07:11):
No
Alessia Horwich (07:11):
there has to be a peg. How does it work?
Alys Denby (07:13):
No, the pegs are really important. So I mean, I suppose it’s probably helpful to your listeners if I sort of describe what my inbox looks like.
Alessia Horwich (07:21):
Yeah
Alys Denby (07:21):
I mean, I get between 50 and a hundred pitches a day, so honestly I can’t read them all. So the subject line is really important and it’s really in the subject line that I want to see what the peg is, and it has to be something topical, it has to be something that’s a news cycle. It has to be something that people are going to be searching for online because our hits really matter to us.
Alessia Horwich (07:39):
I mean, are there many things through the year that you have already highlighted that you’re going to be dedicating that week to that topic or is, I mean, what’s your lead times like? How reactive do you want to be?
Alys Denby (07:50):
I mean, I’d like to be pretty reactive. I think the main sort of way marcus in the year would be around fiscal events, but then I also really like a cultural peg. I love a fun pop culture peg because that always does really well online. If there’s so something like a show that everyone’s talking about on Netflix that you can somehow make relevant, I love that sort of thing because it’s just more fun.
Alessia Horwich (08:14):
Yeah
Alys Denby (08:14):
And then obviously there’s a difference between print and online.
Alessia Horwich (08:18):
Tell me about that.
Alys Denby (08:19):
Well, so for print, I’m much more looking definitely for things about London, definitely for something that I think people are going to want to read about on the tube. For online, it can be much more targeted, a particular audience. So say you have a big CEO who maybe not the most snappy opinion, but it’s something that everyone in that industry is going to want to read
Alessia Horwich (08:38):
Ok
Alys Denby (08:38):
that would be more appropriate for online, I would say.
Alessia Horwich (08:42):
What’s the ratio? How many are you running on in print? Because print’s Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday now?
Alys Denby (08:46):
Yes, we do three a day in print and I try to do a few more online and then obviously a few online, three online Monday, three online Friday, and I think probably the max I have capacity for is five a day.
Alessia Horwich (08:59):
I was going to say that’s a lot for you to be,
Alys Denby (09:01):
Yeah
Alessia Horwich (09:01):
I mean, talk to me about the state that these columns need to be arriving to you in. How much are they prewritten? Are they completely pre-written when they’re pitched or I mean, how does the commissioning process work for it?
Alys Denby (09:14):
It depends. Actually. I don’t have a sort of set format. I suppose from your perspective, it’s maybe not always worth the effort of writing the whole thing in advance in case it gets rejected.
Alessia Horwich (09:23):
Yeah
Alys Denby (09:23):
So I think from your guys’ perspective, a few bullet points outlining what’s the pitch, what’s the argument, who’s the writer? Why is this the best writer for this subject is really helpful, and if it saves you time, don’t bother writing the whole thing. But when you send it to me, I do want it to be perfect. I don’t want to be spending time making edits, making language improvements.
Alessia Horwich (09:48):
That’s interesting. Okay, so that means a lot of, I mean who I’m interested to see if it’s the actual spokesperson who’s writing it or if it’s the PR, does it matter to you?
Alys Denby (09:58):
No, it doesn’t. I suppose it matters in the sense that I want it to have an authentic tone, but I think often you guys are much better writers than your clients. The PR, the PR’s. Yeah.
Alessia Horwich (10:09):
Well no that’s
Alys Denby (10:09):
you know what a lot of you have background in journalism, right? So I don’t mind, I mean I mind it’s quite tedious for an editor to be having to correct spelling and grammar and stuff.
Alessia Horwich (10:20):
Oh gosh, definitely.
Alys Denby (10:21):
So I don’t want that.
Alessia Horwich (10:23):
How long are they?
Alys Denby (10:24):
We usually say 600 words, but can be longer online obviously, but the slots in print are about 600 words.
Alessia Horwich (10:31):
And what is the secret to making it interesting?
Alys Denby (10:35):
Oh God, I think if we all knew that, then we would never get a pitch rejected, right?
Alessia Horwich (10:40):
Five a day. You must know. Come on.
Alys Denby (10:41):
Topicality. Counterintuitive opinion is always good. Something that goes against the prevailing orthodoxy. Really interesting example or case study, something that brings it to life. I love anything that’s got a human story, something inspiring about how a business can help people or a really great little narrative about how a founder came up with the idea of their business or something like that that can bring a story to life is always great. Yeah, I mean I think the important thing in opinion is to have an opinion. I can’t stress that enough. The stuff that I get sometimes where you can tell, and this is especially a weakness I think, of bigger organisations where it goes through so many layers of approval that it just gets watered down and ends up not saying anything.
Alessia Horwich (11:26):
Yeah. Is that often when you’ve kind of accepted a pitch and then the actual thing arrives and you’re like, well, this isn’t really
Alys Denby (11:31):
Dissapointed
Alessia Horwich (11:32):
marrying. Yeah,
Alys Denby (11:33):
Exactly. Yes. That’s very disappointing when it happens, and more often than not, it’s when you’ve got a big name CEO and you’re really excited and it comes back to you saying nothing at all.
Alessia Horwich (11:43):
I mean, is the calibre of the person important to you?
Alys Denby (11:45):
It obviously is important and there are some people, I’m probably never going to say no to the head of the FCA wants to for City AM the City Minister. There are certain people I’m never going to say no to, but honestly what matters most to me is that they have something interesting to say and that they’re the most appropriate person to say it.
Alessia Horwich (12:05):
Of the submissions you get for your inbox, what proportion of them offer interesting controversial opinions versus kind of bland?
Alys Denby (12:15):
Like 30/70? Interesting versus bland, I would say.
Alessia Horwich (12:20):
Yeah, I think that’s probably,
Alys Denby (12:21):
I also have my own prejudices about what I find interesting though.
Alessia Horwich (12:25):
Tell me about that.
Alys Denby (12:26):
So I have a massive prejudice against things that I suppose you could just obviously tell that clients are trying to get themselves in the media for, to be associated with. So AI I think is one of them. At the moment. AI is a super interesting topic, but every pitch I get is the same and it’s very clear to me that a client is saying, I’m at the forefront of ai, make sure people know about it so I can track investment, and I just find that very transparent.
Alessia Horwich (12:56):
In that scenario, what would you advise the PR to do when the client comes in and says that? I mean, do they need to delve into the business a little bit more and find something, find an angle where that business is doing something differently?
Alys Denby (13:09):
Yeah, I think find something amazing that, because AI is doing lots of incredible things,
Alessia Horwich (13:15):
Yeah
Alys Denby (13:15):
right? So when Chat GPT first came out and people were like, oh my god, it sounds like a human. That was amazing. So if you can find something as kind of astonishing as that, then I’ll be interested.
Alessia Horwich (13:27):
Yeah
Alys Denby (13:29):
Very few people seem to have something new to say about it.
Alessia Horwich (13:32):
Is there a shrug test that the PR can kind of go when they hear what the premise of the op-ed is and they’re like, would that grip me?
Alys Denby (13:32):
I think that’s
Alessia Horwich (13:32):
and it’s no.
Alys Denby (13:32):
a very sensible way to test things. And obviously I recognise that that’s quite difficult to go back to your client with, but I think trust your instincts. If you find it boring, it probably is.
Alessia Horwich (13:32):
You probably will.
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Alessia Horwich (14:54):
I wondered about any sectors that you want to hear more from.
Alys Denby (14:57):
Yeah, I mean it’s a good question because I often feel like in my job I have to have a sort of very wide and shallow knowledge of a lot of sectors. So obviously the main ones that we cover are well law and the city finance generally, I guess and SMEs and tech. I feel like I know a little tiny bit about all these sectors and always interested to deepen my knowledge. I suppose I’m more interested in hearing about amazing business ideas or amazing stories, and it doesn’t matter that much to me which sector it is, as long as it’s part of what makes up the city of London.
Alessia Horwich (15:32):
How do you decide what the regular economists are going to write about versus ones that you’re placing from CEOs? I mean, is there overlap or are there areas that only your columnists can deal with and you don’t want to take from outside voices?
Alys Denby (15:45):
No, not really. So we do have two regular columnists who basically cover AI all the time. So again,
Alessia Horwich (15:51):
Another reason why it’s really hard,
Alys Denby (15:53):
Another reason why it’s very hard to pitch to me on AI for my regular columnists. Usually they will get in touch with me a couple of days before their slot and we’ll talk through some topics and they obviously each have different areas of expertise and usually they’ll be writing about probably what’s a big political or economic story of the week, and they’ll sort of cover that. But no, I mean there’s nothing that’s sort of out of bounds and especially I’m always interested to hear when there’s something where your clients might have particular expertise that can really enlighten something that’s very topical and in the news, it’s always really useful to hear from you.
Alessia Horwich (16:28):
Yeah, I was going to say, because someone who might have an inside view on a particular issue is going to be equally as valuable to your readers as your regular content.
Alys Denby (16:36):
Yeah, absolutely. Because the regular columnists are people who are good writers with strong opinions, but they’re not all necessarily business experts,
Alessia Horwich (16:43):
But you need that combo strong opinion.
Alys Denby (16:45):
I think so.
Alessia Horwich (16:45):
Plus business expert.
Alys Denby (16:46):
Yeah, exactly. Stuff that people are going to read that’s going to be entertaining, but also proper insight and analysis that is useful to people in business.
Alessia Horwich (16:56):
Yeah, definitely. Tell me about the struggle for diversity in the people you are.
Alys Denby (17:01):
It’s a real struggle. I suppose. One thing I always comfort myself is that however many white men there are on the page every day, there’s always me,
Alessia Horwich (17:09):
always you.
Alys Denby (17:11):
So I suppose we have certain sections where we are always looking for more diversity, so we have a really nice feature called Square Mile and Me, which is just a sort of soft focus business leader. Where do they get their coffee, where do they go to restaurants and stuff? And it’s a lovely big picture of them and we
Alessia Horwich (17:27):
Right ok
Alys Denby (17:27):
definitely don’t want that to always just be an old white man. Obviously I do really try across the week to make sure I’ve got a decent range, but there will often be several days where the entire print edition is men apart from me, but I hope that they will always have a diversity of thought and perspective.
Alessia Horwich (17:48):
Do you think that as a PR, it’s worth investing in trying to find spokespeople within your organisation who are not white men?
Alys Denby (17:56):
Absolutely. I think that’s worth doing. I suppose I would say I have felt a bit of a, it’s a terrible phrase, but a vibe shift since Trump came in in terms of this kind of DEI agenda, it feels a bit like certain aspects of the city are sort of turning against, not against the agenda, but not prioritising it to the same extent as they once might have done.
Alessia Horwich (18:21):
How does that make you feel? I mean, I guess I’m asking how does City AM feel about that?
Alys Denby (18:26):
I think City AM would take the view that it is merit that is more important than identity, and I don’t think we would want anyone to feel that they’ve been put on a board or whatever it might be because of who they are rather than because of the skills they bring to the table. But that said, merit is not a sort of level playing field for everybody.
Alessia Horwich (18:48):
So how do you translate that into your pages then?
Alys Denby (18:50):
Good question. Again, I suppose I always like to focus more on the opinion than on the person.
Alessia Horwich (18:56):
I think that makes sense because that’s what is going to make you read an article, isn’t it really?
Alys Denby (18:59):
I think so, but yeah, obviously there are many other sections where we would like to highlight other voices and other backgrounds and so on.
Alessia Horwich (19:09):
Okay, so from my little recap at the end, I like to do the main takeaway. I mean obviously the main takeaway for me is have a really strong opinion about something.
Alys Denby (19:17):
Yeah
Alessia Horwich (19:17):
Something’s going to knock your socks off. It’s in the subject line.
Alessia Horwich (19:21):
When omebody is pitching to you, when does that pitch need to arrive to you and how much time are you actually going to give it? How many words have they got to grab your attention at the top?
Alys Denby (19:31):
I mean about six words.
Alessia Horwich (19:33):
Wow.
Alys Denby (19:35):
Like I say, my inbox is just a nightmare and I try to be disciplined about it and do a sift in the morning, a sift at lunch and a sift before I leave. I rarely get to be that disciplined. I do try and reply to everybody because I know how annoying it is to you guys when you don’t get a reply. So I do try and just do a very quick thank you going to pass if it’s a no, but I would say the best time to get my attention would be in the morning before 10:00 AM earlier in the week, the bette because I sort of plan across the week.
Alessia Horwich (20:07):
What has a PR always got to get right when they’re pitching to you?
Alys Denby (20:11):
My name, my publication, they do get that wrong.
Alessia Horwich (20:15):
Yeah
Alys Denby (20:15):
I know that you’re pitching to several, occasionally get things for the FT. That’s not great. And not just the correct publication, but also the correct angle for us. So if you are pitching me something about amazing opportunities in Dubai, it’s like, well, that’s not really, you don’t know this is a London paper.
Alessia Horwich (20:37):
Are there any other little things that PRs you work with often do that actually really make your job easier? I mean, do they ever sort of say things like, oh, I saw you did this piece with this person last week. My guy has an opinion about that, that might be in response to it, or my guy thinks something similar about this bit of the city or whatever. What do you think? Is that helpful?
Alys Denby (21:00):
Yeah, I think it’s definitely, what’s super helpful to me is if you’re reading the paper and engaging with it, a tiny thing, but that’s really helpful is links to sources and stuff in your copy because it makes a huge difference to Google. It just gives your pieces more. So if you’ve got a data point or report, often I’ll get a piece that’s an op-ed off the back of a report, but it won’t have the link to the report and that’s really annoying. I have to put it in and it’s a waste of your time because surely you’re trying to promote this report. That’s really basic, but it’s really helpful. What I value most about contributions and pitches from PRs is your creative ideas. Sometimes you just have a peg or an angle that I just wouldn’t have thought of that’s a new and interesting way to talk about business.
Alessia Horwich (21:49):
So you’re saying more of that, please? Like
Alys Denby (21:50):
More creativity.
Alessia Horwich (21:50):
Like get your ideas in,
Alys Denby (21:51):
and I’m sure that’s more fun for you.
Alessia Horwich (21:53):
Yeah, definitely. And it’s more fun for everybody to read.
Alys Denby (21:55):
Yeah, exactly.
Alessia Horwich (21:56):
Great. Thanks Alice.
Alys Denby (21:57):
Thank you. Pleasure.
