How to pitch health stories to the Sunday Times Magazine with Phoebe Luckhurst

Alessia Horwich (00:07):

Welcome to On the Rox, a podcast from Roxhill Media that asks some of the best journalists in the UK for their solutions to the kind of dilemmas that confront PRs daily. We know that there’s not a one size fits all way of communicating with journalists, so we’re going direct to the writers in the newsroom to hear how they like to work with PRs and how you can stand out in their inbox. My name is Alessia Horwich, I’m a former Sunday Times journalist, now the director of Creative Content and Brand at Roxhill. Today we’re going to be talking about how to pitch health stories to The Sunday Times Magazine with its Commissioning Editor, Phoebe Luckhurst. I mean, I’ve met you quite a few times now, but I don’t know much about how you became a journalist. I mean, did you always want to be a journalist?

Phoebe Luckhurst (00:48):

I did always want to be a journalist, which I think is always a bit of an embarrassing answer.

Alessia Horwich (00:52):

Well, it’s the most frequent answer I’ve got to tell you.

Phoebe Luckhurst (00:55):

Okay. That makes me a bit better. I think I was always fascinated by newspapers and magazines. It just sort of looked like so much fun. I mean, obviously when I was a child that was sort of golden age of journalism like Vanity Fair, Vogue, I mean, probably was a lot more fun, but, and that fascination never really left. I sort of thought it just must be the most interesting job in the world to kind of write and talk and think about things that people are interested in and make this physical thing. And now obviously it’s not so much about making the physical thing, it’s putting on the internet. But yes, I did always want to be a journalist.

Alessia Horwich (01:24):

How did you go about making it happen?

Phoebe Luckhurst (01:26):

So I did a lot of student journalism when I was at university. I co-founded The Tab, which became this monster that was at hundreds of universities after a while. But yes, it was the kind of first digital student newspaper that existed in Cambridge is where I went to university. And so launched that with a group of people and did that for two years, probably to the slight detriment of my degree. And then after I graduated, I sort of couldn’t really work out how to get into it. I couldn’t afford to do a master’s, couldn’t afford to work for free, so I started doing content for a startup, like writing that blog and doing a bit copywriting. Moved to Berlin with that startup for a bit and just saved save saved until I could afford to come back and do the unpaid internship route, which I think rightly doesn’t exist anymore. So I started doing unpaid internship at ELLE and then on the Evening Standard and then sort of right place, right time they had a very entry level job available. So that was my first proper paid job in journalism.

Alessia Horwich (02:17):

Yeah. Oh gosh. What do you think about what’s happened to The Standard?

Phoebe Luckhurst (02:21):

It’s not what it used to be. When I worked there in, I got my job there in 2013, it honestly felt like getting the golden ticket to work in journalism. It was a really young team, it was a big team when I started. You were always being sent off to do mad silly things. It was so quick and reactive and it did feel like the stuff that you were writing about was the stuff that everyone was talking about, everyone was reading about, everyone cared about. It was really, really exciting. And then I sort of saw through slight mismanagement and just the ebbs and flows of journalism, print journalism, it’s obviously a print product, it became a shadow of what it had been. You lose staff in redundancies, people go and they don’t get replaced. You suddenly realise you don’t have the budgets to do exciting things. The paper gets smaller and smaller and smaller and I think didn’t respond quickly enough to the demands of digital media. There’s this kind of assumption that people will always be getting the tube and they’ll always be reading the paper, and actually that I think was quite naive and people say it was COVID. I think having worked there before and after COVID, COVID is a bit of a scapegoat perhaps for what happened. I don’t think it was wholly COVID, I think that there was the planning before the pandemic for how you would respond to a media market that was obviously going digital. There was no planning. So I think that the writing was already potentially on the wall, but it’s very sad. I don’t say that with any relish, I absolutely loved working there, It was the most fun job in the world at the time. And yeah, I look back on it very fondly. I was very lucky, and I learned a lot, I think.

Alessia Horwich (03:50):

Also super fast-paced environment, which is a contrast of what you’re doing now. So The Sunday Times Mag, lovely 10 day lead time on that. One of the things that it made me think about health content when you were talking just then was the fact that you do mad crazy things at The sStandard. And actually I think when health content started being covered, maybe it was ages ago obviously, but when I was at The Sunday Times when we talked about doing health content, it was like mad fitness stuff and trying out crazy trends and things like that. It’s completely changed now. Tell me about that.

Phoebe Luckhurst (04:18):

Yes, I did my time in those trenches of being sent to the exercise class, which was a gimmick where you’d be a clown and it would be a workout, that sort of nonsense stuff. So I think that stuff has been phased out a little bit because fitness class generally aren’t as much of a novelty. I also think people are more health conscious now than they were 10 years ago. I think that people, the idea of people being sober curious 10 years ago you would be laughed out town. Now people are really, really conscious of how much they drink. I think people are aware that exercising isn’t just for people who want to run ultra marathons. It’s exercise is a place in most people’s lives, whether that is a Pilates class, a walk, or you are training to do the London Marathon. So I think that’s what’s changed is that you realise that the readers are genuinely sincerely interested in this stuff. You don’t need to turn it into a gimmick, you can make a virtue of it. You can make interesting pieces about health content that don’t rely on silly stunts to get readers.

Alessia Horwich (05:10):

Absolutely. I mean we’ve seen the amount of health coverage across The Times and Sunday Times Rocket, but specifically you picked it up for the magazine. What was it two years ago it started or was it longer now?

Phoebe Luckhurst (05:22):

Yeah, It was about two years ago. Yeah.

Alessia Horwich (05:25):

Yeah, what’s the brief, why was it all of a sudden it was a new editor, wasn’t it? Who was like, “hello, the audience needs to know about this”. But when you sort of took it on, what was your initial brief?

Phoebe Luckhurst (05:36):

The initial brief was to, I suppose as briefs with any sections always are, keep existing readers and grow new ones, grow new, a new readership, I suppose. So the brief was to find those kind of health and fitness pieces that hit that mark. So finding the universal topics, whether it’s sleep, it’s diet, it’s ageing, it’s fertility, these topics that all Sunday Times readers are interested in, but people who haven’t necessarily come to the Sunday Times before will also see it and be like, “I want to read about that”. And it was to build on, The Times was always doing health stuff very well and we just didn’t really have a place for it in The Sunday Times. And the magazine felt like a place to do that as well because we do have our kind of back of book features where we do food and we do driving, so fitness and health felt like a kind of obvious thing to bring into the magazine staple.

Alessia Horwich (06:25):

How much do you think about it week to week?

Phoebe Luckhurst (06:27):

I actually think about it quite a lot, but I mean it is an interest of mine generally. I think having to do all of those fitness pieces when I was 20 something and spending a lot more time at the pub, I think it kind of gave me that grounding. And so as I get a bit older, so I definitely spend a lot of time thinking about it. I think the thing about the health brief is that there are headlines every single day and so there is always something new to think about and it is also the sort of content where someone will have a conversation about breakfast cereal at the desk because their 3-year-old didn’t want to eat something that morning and that will become a health piece about what the healthiest breakfast cereal will be. So it feels like a lot of magazine pieces are brilliant, brilliant long reads, but they aren’t quite those kind of conversational things that people are literally just talking about day to day. And I think that’s what is very interesting about it is that it’s a constantly evolving sector, but also it is just stuff that people want to talk about with their mates or their colleagues.

Alessia Horwich (07:17):

I feel for PRs when journalists tell me things like this because I’m like, “how frustrating must that be you are writing a whole article just on something you’ve had a chat with your mate next to you on the desk route and they’ve had no input in”. How do they get in that mindset? Should they be listening around the office to what people are chatting about? Are those the things that you want to be writing about?

Phoebe Luckhurst (07:35):

I think that they should be, I think if it’s often the health pieces that do particularly well are things like Google searches you might do about, like, “do women sleep better alone” and then suddenly you can literally pull seven sleepness that you hadn’t thought about before out of that single Google search. So I think it would be useful for PRs to think what are the kind of questions that I want answered? What am I putting into Dr. Google? What am I talking about with colleagues around the desk? And also I think keeping an eye on those headlines. I mean people make jokes that one week black coffee is good for you in the next week black coffee is going to kill you, so you have to take it with a little bit of a pinch of salt. But I think the data shows that people care about those health pieces. If we have an article about anything from how much sleep you’re getting to how many steps you should be getting to how much dairy milk you should be drinking to coffee, those will be some of the most read pieces on the paper that week or that day if you are on The Times. And so you do notice that people do want to be kept abreast of this stuff. So I think also just being aware of headlines and things that are becoming part of the conversation, Ozempic, for example, which I’m sure we’ll get onto.

Alessia Horwich (08:34):

We are going to talk about it in a sec.

Phoebe Luckhurst (08:34):

To pick these kind of big health things that people are talking about a lot. That is a way to pitch stories. So if you are just as across them as I am, that’s really useful.

Alessia Horwich (08:42):

Yeah, it’s interesting you’re saying that the health pieces are performing really well only from a perspective that your health stuff is kind of at the back of the book, isn’t it? And on the lifestyle tab, it’s not specifically health, you have to click into lifestyle and then go. How do you feel about that? Would you like more visibility?

Phoebe Luckhurst (08:57):

I’d like some more visibility. No, I mean in the back of the book, I think in print it works really well the way that it is because the magazine starts front ends it with this big 3,000 – 4,000 word pieces, some of which can be quite serious. And I think the nice thing about the back of book features is that they are a bit of a change of pace and I think that it does that really, really brilliantly. And then you can read the whole magazine start to finish, which I hope everyone does, and you get a bit of both and I think that’s nice. Online, it’s tricky. It’s great when you get put on the homepage, which does happen. Our first person pieces tend to do well if someone is writing. We had Emily Clarkson wrote a brilliant piece about her experience of hyperemesis gravidarum, which is really, really bad morning sickness, which many of you probably know. And that did brilliantly, it also helped that it was on the homepage. And so when we get that slot, the data shows people read it more. So it can be frustrating if you don’t get that slot. But we do a lot of, our stuff does very well on Google Discover. Social-wise we get a lot of love from that team too, I think because they are aware of how much these are topics people are just talking about. I’m thinking about all the time.

Alessia Horwich (09:58):

Yeah. Tell me about the brief then for your health slot. There’s lots of different types of, so you’ve already sort of name checked a first person piece. I know you do lots of stuff pegged to books. What are you looking at? What are the kind of hooks that you’re looking to use?

Phoebe Luckhurst (10:14):

So I suppose we have hooks and formats. Hooks are, if there is a news piece, I mean our lead times are almost two weeks so we can’t react to something the next day, but if it’s in the ether it’s still relevant. If I read something two weeks ago, I’m still going to care about it. So news pieces are a hook and books, as you mentioned, are a hook. In terms of formats, I suppose people coming to me with the first person and saying, “I’ve got something interesting I would like to write about”. I’m always interested in that. And if you have an author who could be that person, that’s a good way of getting coverage for something. I think in terms of products, if you are a consumer PR, then it’s useful to know why I should be talking about that product now, like, what is new about it? What’s the new spin on it? The themes in health are very universal. It’s like it is sleep, it’s ageing, it’s diet. But there are new ways to do all of those stories. And so I think what I want to know from you is what is that new way of talking about. Why should I be talking about this sleep mask now? What is there about it that is interesting that means we should do something on it right now?

Alessia Horwich (11:12):

Is that the holy trinity for you, sleep?

Phoebe Luckhurst (11:13):

I keep mentioning them. I feel like I do have some other topics, but yeah, those are…

Alessia Horwich (11:20):

Fertility I guess.

Phoebe Luckhurst (11:21):

Fertility is a really big one. Alcohol is a really big one. People’s decisions around drinking, we find again increasingly, I think even five years ago it would be more, “oh, let’s all be drinking”.

Alessia Horwich (11:31):

I remember when Charles Corrin wrote that piece about stopping drinking and drinking non-alcoholic beer and it was such a like “what is this?”, and now it’s so normal.

Phoebe Luckhurst (11:39):

It’s so normal and people, I don’t think that’s only a good thing. It should be completely acceptable for people to drink less. But it is interesting to see again how quickly that has changed in that period of time. But yes, we have, I suppose I do kind of myth busting is another big sort of format I suppose because it’s that slightly counterintuitive take on a topic. Again, I think because with health pieces you do feel like, well everyone knows about sleep, so it’s like how can we do this in a slightly back to front way? So I did have a piece coming up that talks a bit about how sleep deprivation isn’t anywhere near as bad as you think it is in the short term, which is just as slightly interesting because it plays into people’s like, “God, I’m worried I only got five and a half hours sleep last night”, and then they read it and they say, “oh apparently it means I could be more creative today”. So it’s that kind of giving that slightly interesting kernel to deal with and it’s a kind of talking point that again, you can imagine bringing that up with someone having a conversation about it. So that’s definitely a good format. And then with fitness stuff, I find the best way of doing it is just a sort of intro and some chunks on some different interesting things. We don’t tend to do kind of hardcore fitness pieces. We don’t imagine our readers are necessarily the kind of people who want to read about ultramarathons or intense fitness classes. It’s more how do I future proof my knees? How do I make sure that my workout that I’m doing two to three times a week is working for me? How can my gut health influence my workouts? Those are the sorts of topics we’re doing rather than this is how to get ripped in the gym, which we assume you are going to five times a week.

Alessia Horwich (13:01):

How do you balance fitness and health? How often do you run fitness stories as opposed to health ones?

Phoebe Luckhurst (13:07):

We run fewer fitness pieces than we run health pieces. I think because it is that little bit less universal. Again, we assume our readers are interested in living healthily, but we think that they probably come at that from a kind of diet, sleep, ageing, etc, approach first before wanting to read about workouts. I think it is also trickier to do fitness pieces originally. There are only so many ways you can talk about going for a run, for example. There is lots of other content out there that helps people to do that. I feel like people have their couch to 5K app and they don’t necessarily does to summarise the contents of the five 5K app. So I like fitness stuff and I’m always open to fitness stories, but I think yeah, it definitely needs that kind of extra spin and we find data wise it does do less well for us than the health stuff which tends to fly.

Alessia Horwich (13:57)

That’s really interesting.

Roxhill Media (14:05):

Spotlight your company voices with Roxhilll’s dedicated spokespeople platform. Agame changer for PRs in the investment management, investment banking, legal or higher education communities. With this platform you can centralise all your spokespeople in one place, track coverage, identify opportunity gaps and measure your media impact with ease. Monitor your spokespeople in real time with instant alerts, see who’s shaping the conversation in your industry with tailored share of voice charts, discover new media opportunities with personalised journalist suggestions and generate custom downloadable reports that highlight your team’s impact from business strategy to post coverage insights, take control of your media presence in the spotlight and behind the scenes.

Alessia Horwich (14:58):

You’re talking a lot about the reader here. I want to know about who you are imagining when you’re commissioning, because that’s key for the PRs to know when they’re pitching.

Phoebe Luckhurst (15:05):

So we are imagining our traditional Sunday Times audience, which does skew older and male, so you’re kind of men in your fifties and sixties. But part of the purpose of health and fitness is to bring in a new younger, more female readership and just younger, generally readership. We do see that that is happening, especially when we write about alcohol, fertility, those are two things that people who are younger and that audience that we really want to come to The Sunday Times, they are really interested in those topics. So it’s kind of about balancing those two things. As I think I said before, the holy grail is obviously a piece that gets both of those people, but sometimes maybe you pick one over the other of a weekend, but it’s definitely part of the remit of health is to kind of get the new audience and keep them coming back.

Alessia Horwich (15:49):

Yeah, I mean I have heard that a woman in her 40s is the reader that everyone is chasing.

Phoebe Luckhurst (15:54):

Everyone wants that woman.

Alessia Horwich (15:55):

At the Sunday times at the moment. When you are commissioning then, you’re being inundated with ideas, what is something that’s going to stand out for you?

Phoebe Luckhurst (16:03):

I mean I do always really want a first person piece because it’s beautiful writing as well, which is really important for The Sunday Times. And I think that those pieces, if you’ve got a really solid first person headline, basically headline in an email subject line, I love that sort of thing. I really, really do. And I do think we want, increasingly we want diet pieces that are not about Ozempic.

Alessia Horwich (16:24):

Yeah. So let’s talk about Ozempic because I was speaking to Peta Bee who’s obviously the fitness writer at the time and she said it’s really changed the way that they cover any sort of weight loss piece because people don’t need to lose weight anymore through fitness because they’re all taking Ozempic. I mean, has that really changed your thinking when you’re commissioning?

Phoebe Luckhurst (16:41):

It’s an interesting one because I do think Ozempic, to an extent, although clearly there is a huge demand for it and supply, the shortage of supply suggests that there are a lot of people taking it. It isn’t everyone. The majority of people I think you speak to still do want to lose weight by exercising and working out. So there is a part of me as a member of the media who thinks this is one of those things that the media are absolutely obsessed with, and your communal garden reader just wants to still read about fitness and health in a kind of more balanced way.

Alessia Horwich (17:10):

Do you think that? That’s really interesting.

Phoebe Luckhurst (17:11):

I do think so. I think there’s a fascination with Ozempic. Celebrities are obviously all on it.

Alessia Horwich (17:16):

I’m hearing that normal people, I mean I know people who are on it.

Phoebe Luckhurst (17:20):

I absolutely do.

Alessia Horwich (17:22):

It’s astonishing.

Phoebe Luckhurst (17:22):

I absolutely do know normal people, but I still think it would be dangerous to lose sight of doing health and fitness content in a kind of traditional way. I think what has certainly changed is that you have to basically nod to Ozempic in most of those pieces and say, “if you’re not taking Ozempic, then you can go for a jog and maybe eat a few more greens”. So I think that it certainly does come into my thinking at all times, but I’m also…

Alessia Horwich (17:54):

I mean, would you like to see that nod to the acknowledgement of it from a PR pitch if they’re going to pitch something that’s about around weight loss?

Phoebe Luckhurst (18:01):

Yes. I think it shows that they are very much up to speed with the way that certainly the media is presenting the Ozempic story. So yes, I think it is useful for a PR definitely to nod to it in that pitch, but I’m certainly not of the opinion that there’s no point doing other types of health and wellbeing, specifically diet content just because Ozempic exists. Because also really, I mean certainly what I try to present in our health content is that you should want to be healthy and eating a balanced diet because diets include nutrients that aren’t about weight loss, they’re about just being a healthy person and a lot of our readers that does resonate with them and you read the comment section sometimes of pieces that are very Ozempic heavy and a lot of the readers are quite aghast, so of course people are taking it. But I also think that I think we want to encourage people to eat more fibre, eat more protein, eat their greens. I do think that there’s a sort of responsibility there to take an even handed approach to it rather than get too excited.

Alessia Horwich (18:54):

How much do you read the comment section? Are you guys all immersed in it constantly?

Phoebe Luckhurst (18:57):

When I write my own pieces, never because I just don’t want to don’t see what they’ve said even if it’s nice, because sometimes if you’re in the wrong mood it can upset you and if you’re in the right mood you just laugh. Sometimes I have read things that people have said, this is a pointless article and it’s just very funny sort of share on my Instagram. But sometimes it’s just like, ooh and I just don’t want to be made to feel like that. When it comes to commissioning how stuff is, it is useful to see what people are saying. Sometimes you can see something’s done well because the data suggests it’s done very well. But it is interesting to see if people think it is silly or I mean some of those people will say they think our piece is irresponsible, that you’ve gone in so hard on a specific type of, you know, so I think it is useful and they are our readers and we do want our readers to stick around as well as attracting these new readers. So I definitely take it into account when commissioning, it’s not the only thing, but it’s part of a sort of patchwork of things we care about.

Alessia Horwich (19:46):

Do you think that PRs could benefit from reading comments?

Phoebe Luckhurst (19:50):

Yeah.

Alessia Horwich (19:50):

Are there ideas to be found in that?

Phoebe Luckhurst (19:52):

I think there probably are ideas to be found. I mean look, if we find them then I think PRs could find them as well. And I think as we are commissioning for our readers, it’s probably useful for PRs to kind of know what we’re trying to do. I guess that’s kind of cutting straight through the noise in some way and just saying, look, what do The Sunday Times readers want? I don’t think they want to make it the entire resource, but we don’t. I think it is definitely, definitely useful. We care about our readers, so yeah.

Alessia Horwich (20:16):

If you can see what they do want, what are the things that you absolutely do not want? I mean there must be a boundary of when something becomes too medicalised or it’s a bit too icky, maybe even what’s a hard no for you?

Phoebe Luckhurst (20:29):

Medical stuff is basically a hard no. We have a brilliant science editor who works on the paper and he covers sciencey things, but I think you do want it to be that kind of level of I could have a conversation with a friend about this and we would both understand what we were talking about, rather than having to get too technical and kind of explain things, just because I don’t think that is of the health coverage

Alessia Horwich (20:48):

Is there the other extreme where it’s too fluffy?

Phoebe Luckhurst (20:52):

Wellness is a word that we don’t like. I struggle with the word generally, but I think we don’t want to be talking about anything too “woo woo” in The Sunday Times because that isn’t our readers and it isn’t…

Alessia Horwich (21:08)

Or is it more Style mag?

Phoebe Luckhurst (21:10):

They’re also, I think there’s probably been a bit of a move away from kind “woo woo” stuff generally across The Sunday Times. It certainly feels like that to me, but yeah, it’s definitely not The Sunday Times Magazine. It doesn’t feel like it’s quite right for us. Some of those kind of terms, the wellness terms, I think just don’t, it’s not what you want to write.

Alessia Horwich (21:28):

Tell me about experts and data. So that’s got to be a consideration for you. Who do you want to be speaking to for experts and what kind of data is serious enough for you guys to perk up and take notice?

Phoebe Luckhurst (21:39):

Experts we love, we want them to have the kind of proper credentials.

Alessia Horwich (21:43)

What does that mean?

Phoebe Luckhurst (21:44):

I think proper training. So you want a kind of psychotherapist, not a life coach. I’m not offending anyone too much there. You sort of want a dietitian, like a proper, someone who’s done some training and has real expertise and possibly is attached to an organisation that people will know about, that would mean something to a The Sunday Times reader or if they Googled it they’d be like, that is an organisation that I would respect. Without being disrespectful with anyone. And data, I mean I love data. Data is a great way to provide a hook for piece. Absolutely. And to give it a bit of grounding in something. If there’s a great stat, you can put in the second or third par and kind of build a piece around that is good. It’s great if you’ve commissioned your own data, that is really useful. Studies, I mean we often have, I don’t know, Zoe app people coming to us and that stuff is useful. They’ve done it with a lot of people and they have worked out something that is useful and interesting to our readers. So yeah, definitely keen on experts and data.

Alessia Horwich (22:44):

For experts, is them having a social following anything that you would take into consideration when making a decision about using an expert?

Phoebe Luckhurst (22:52):

If it was like they’ve got loads of followers, this other person, but the other person said better stuff that I would go with the person who said the better quote for sure. Yeah, definitely. I mean it is useful to say to someone on a Friday afternoon, before the piece comes out, we’d love you to share this on your social. Of course that is great. And if they are one of those kind of increasingly brand name health experts like Federica and Marty or Tim Spectre, those kind of people, like household-name people, that is obviously interesting to us. We like people like that. But again, you don’t have to be someone with hundreds of thousands of followers to feature in The Sunday Times magazine, you just need to know your stuff I think.

Alessia Horwich (23:28):

I mean for these pieces, they are shorter than the four features at the front of the book, do you have time to be rummaging around in data and things like that for the health features or is it more, when it comes to you, the PR needs to say, “look, I’ve picked out these three interesting themes from this data or if you look on this page, this is where the interesting the gold is kind of thing”. Is that helpful?

Phoebe Luckhurst (23:49):

I love that stuff to be flagged to me. Definitely. I think every journalist would probably say the same. Yeah, it’s definitely really, really useful for you to pick out top lines and specific data that you think could be really useful. I love it when someone cuts the chase like that. It’s incredibly helpful.

Alessia Horwich (24:06):

Yeah. How easy is it to commission this page?

Phoebe Luckhurst (24:08):

By this point in my career, given that I have done a fair bit of health and fitness over the course of the whole thing, it’s fairly second nature. You tend to know what’s going to work. It’s very rare that you put something out there that absolutely dive bombs data-wise. And the thing is that it is constantly evolving. I mean as we said earlier, it is 10 years ago you wouldn’t talk about not drinking, fitness classes were kind of a stunty thing that ended up in papers when people dressed up in silly things or had to do horrible things that made them be sick. And now health and wellbeing and fitness is part of people’s everyday lives in quite a different way. So I think because it is evolving fairly quickly and interestingly I think it is quite easy to commission something. Sometimes you have those weeks where just like nothing is really coming off and you can’t think of a fresh way to do running. But I think broadly speaking it is quite easy to commission them. But I do love getting ideas. I always want to hear about ideas, whether that is products or events or people or data or experts that you have access to. It is really useful to hear that stuff. I do genuinely commission stuff off the back of that, so it is great to have it.

Alessia Horwich (25:11):

Do you know in advance, how far in advance do you know if you’re going to get one or two pages?

Phoebe Luckhurst (25:17):

How far? Usually about midweek, the week before.

Alessia Horwich (25:21):

Yeah. Okay, so not that far in advance. So you commission to a sta