Why PRs should get their clients on late-night radio with Angus Mitchell, Times Radio

Alessia Horwich (00:07):

Welcome to On The Rox, a podcast from Roxhill Media that asks working journalists for their solutions to some of the problems that confront PRs daily. We know there’s not a one size fits all way of communicating with journalists, so we’re going straight to the editors in the newsroom to find out how they like to work with PRs and the best way to get cut through in their inboxes. My name is Alessia Horwich. I’m a former Sunday Times journalist, now the Head of Brand at Roxhill. Today we’re going to be talking about why PR should be pitching to late night radio with Angus Mitchell, lead producer on the Carol Walker Show at Times Radio. I mean, Angus, you just told me you’re only 27, but tell me, how did you get into radio in the first place?

Angus Mitchell (00:43):

So I got into radio via university. I did archaeology at Cardiff.

Alessia Horwich (00:48):

Oh, that’s that normal feeder degree too.

Angus Mitchell (00:51):

I know. It’s a rather bizarre route, especially at Times Radio, I think, because there’s a lot of politics, PPE, all kind of just broadcast journalism. People know what they want to do. I did archaeology just because I liked ancient history at school. I liked the kind of stories, the aesthetics of it all, and I find it fascinating. So I did that at Cardiff, but when I was at Cardiff, I did radio as a kind of society. That was my, I said, express radio. But that was very much a kind of music thing. I had my own radio show at Cardiff for three years.

(01:24):

So I got really comfy with the faders, how radio works, how it… It’s very different obviously to talk radio, but yeah, I did that and it scratched apart my brain that I didn’t realise needed scratching. And while I was doing archaeology, COVID happened. So I was still in the COVID era because that is somehow six years ago now. And I had to make a decision. So I did a master’s, some might call it panic masters in broadcast journalism because I kind of saw archaeology, radio, what do I really want to do job-wise? I always enjoyed archaeology and thought this is really fun, but I wasn’t one of those people that was like, “Go to uni to find what you want to do later in life. Just go to uni and see what happens.” And yeah, I went for broadcast journalism at City. I went to City of London, did the broadcast route, loved it.

(02:13):

And then I very much realised that when the master started, it was very much journalism with broadcast. It was like this is journalism about how to do it on the broadcast stage. And I kind of just kept going, kept going, found a passion for that and got into Times Radio via six emails to the same editor who eventually said –

Alessia Horwich (02: 35):

Which editor was it?

Angus Mitchell (02:36):

It was Husain Husaini. So he’s the morning editor. And it’s really funny now because I’m so close with Husain now. He’s such a lovely guy. He was at Five Live for years and years. He’s a brilliant producer, brilliant editor. I was so scared though when he replied because I was kind of sending my CV as we were told to just blanket, send whoever you can get an email for, send it to. I didn’t get a reply for six emails and then I finally got a reply, which is no offence to what you’re saying.

(02:59):

It’s fair enough because I know how many he gets. And then I just got a reply saying Tuesday 6:00 AM.

Alessia Horwich (03:05):

No.

Angus Mitchell (03:05):

Yeha, that was it. I’ve still got the email. It was Tuesday, 6AM. No, this is where Times Radio is. This is what we did. It was just Tuesday, 6AM. I found out where Times Radio were broadcasting from. So the News UK building, which is a daunting building in itself. It’s a very impressive building. I’m very glad I’m there now. I showed up and I told security, I’ve got an email from the editor. I’ve told 6AM, “You’re not on the list. You’re not on the list,” because it’s very strict security there. So I kind of was like, “Oh my goodness, he sent an email to the wrong person or something like that. ” But no, he replied to my email and he said, “Okay, well coming down now.” And he’s just the nicest guy ever took me under his wing. I went upstairs at 6AM on a Tuesday and the next day was the spring budget and they needed an extra pair of hands to help with kits down to the green at Westminster.

(03:51):

And I said, “I’ll do that. ” And it is literally from there, I just kept saying, “Well, I’m free next week. Well, I can do this. I can do that. ” And yeah, that was four and a bit years ago and yeah, that’s kind of how I got into it

Alessia Horwich (04:03):

Yeah

Angus Mitchell (04:03):

Which it’s not the most fear plan. I’m going to be here, I’m going to do this, but just I guess a lot of luck and working hard at the stuff I’m doing when I’m doing it, I think that’s my kind of ethos.

Alessia Horwich (04:15):

I love hearing these stories about how people go to journalism. There’s always like either you do the normal MA and just get in or there’s some story like yours. So good.

Angus Mitchell (04:23):

Bizarre. I mean, my line in archaeology when people say you did archaeology, it’s a bit annoying, but it’s basically journalism but 10,000 years ago. We’re telling stories about people.

Alessia Horwich (04:37):

Yeah

Angus Mitchell (04:37):

So, there’s the Venn diagram of history, journalism, just squint your eyes a bit. It’s quite similar.

Alessia Horwich (04:42):

So before you started with the Carole Walker Show, what’s the latest you’d stayed up to do radio?

Angus Mitchell (04:47):

The latest I stayed up to do radio, I’ve done all nighters but never paid to do that. However, I would say the better answer was in terms of sleep, schedule and work is my first gig at Times Radio as kind of full-time I’m on this show was on the weekends and it was weekend breakfast.

(05:05):

So in terms of staying up, no, but getting up, I’d be getting up at 2:50 AM Friday, Saturday, Sunday when I was like 23 and in London, all my friends going to parties, going out exploring stuff and I was like, “No, I’ve got to go to bed, got to get up.” That cab journey in to the Times is so exciting. I loved it, but I did it of two years. I think my rule was four hours sleep and I’ll be fine. I’ve got a lot better at my lifestyle now. I’m like, “Oh, this is the life.” I get to go to bed at 2AM, but then at least I get to sleep in. So I think the way my brain works is this is actually a great lifestyle compared to what I was doing when it was weekend breakfast.

Alessia Horwich (05:50):

Yeah, that’s pretty grim.

Angus Mitchell (05:51):

Yeah, it was pretty brutal.

Alessia Horwich (05:52):

Okay. So tell me, what do PRs need to know about late night radio?

Angus Mitchell (05:56):

I think late night radio as a term is super broad because wherever you are, even if it’s music radio, talk radio, it’s so different depending on what station you’re at, especially at Times Radio. We try and have our own brand. We’re only five years old compared to some of our competitors who have been around for years and years. So we’ve been really focused on making our brand something that people know about Times Radio. So it’s not as simple as this is what radio is like in the evenings, in the morning, so that should be on your mind. You should know actually for me in terms of what’s Times Radio, what’s our brand?

Alessia Horwich (06:29):

Well, yeah, tell me, what’s the difference between a daytime show and Times Radio and what you’re

Angus Mitchell (06:32):

Doing? Yeah. What I would say is that we have a bit more time for guests. I think The Breakfast Show, Jane and Fi is a bit of a different animal altogether, but in terms of the shows I would compare us to in terms of content, because we’re current affairs, we’re foreign politics, we are international affairs. We would have less guests than a breakfast show who do the same kind of themes as us, but we would hopefully have them for a bit longer. And so I think the brief of a guest needs to be a bit wider. It wouldn’t be as honed in on, you are here just to talk about this. We like guests that are really comfortable with what they are there to talk about, but if they do need to stay for a couple more minutes, they’re comfortable and they understand that Carole at that time of night will have that kind of flexibility to give you a few more questions to maybe broaden out the conversation.

(07:24):

I think that’s probably the main difference on late night is the length of items. It’s just that bit longer. So for instance, sometimes I even do two stories in half an hour compared to on breakfast, you might do five. So it is very different. It’s very different every day in terms of what the story is and how much time it needs, but yeah.

Alessia Horwich (07:46):

Do you think the tone is different?

Angus Mitchell (07:47):

I think we actually try and make the tone not too different. I think on other stations it would be. So that’s why my answer’s a little bit kind of airy fairy in terms of the normal answer for late night is a bit more relaxed and people are falling asleep to you or it’s like late night drives and things like that. But I think we have a very international audience.

Alessia Horwich (08:06):

Yeah. Tell me who is listening.

Angus Mitchell (08:08):

We have a lot of listeners in America and actually because of visualisation, we’re on YouTube live streaming now. Our videos is a massive part of our brand. We’re always thinking in terms of tone as a standalone video, if it’s just a kind of late night relaxed tone, would that seem a bit weird for a video that’s going to go out tomorrow morning with a great guest from America, a former US ambassador or Secretary of State or whatever, because we do get brilliant guests in the evenings because of the time difference actually, particularly for American content. We are wanting it still sound urgent, authoritative. And I think that’s the difference actually at Times Radio in terms of that evening doesn’t suddenly become relaxed. And let’s just talk about anything. We are kind of on the money. A lot’s happening for us because we do look at America, we cover international stories.

Alessia Horwich (08:55):

So I mean, I was going to say, does that mean that Carole kind of goes a bit easier on the guests, but probably not?

Angus Mitchell (09:01):

No, no way. I think we’re very proud of our slot and it’s Carole hasn’t been doing things earlier in the day in terms of other interviews where by the time that she comes to you at 20 past 10 or 11 o’clock, this is our show. From 10 o’clock, we’re hitting the ground running. So no, we don’t go easy on guests. And like I said, we’d expect guests to be happy to be a bit more broad with conversations. I mean, obviously for PRs, going back to your original question, if there are red lines, I definitely want to know because the worst thing that can happen is, “Oh, I don’t want to talk about that, ” or something like that.

Alessia Horwich (09:36):

Yeah

Angus Mitchell (09:38):

We definitely want to know. And that wouldn’t necessarily be a kind of, “Okay, we’re definitely not doing them, but you need to understand at that time we’re going to hopefully speak to your guest for a bit longer.” So make that clear because that could come up if you have a red line, but it’s very rare with that would happen.

Alessia Horwich (09:53):

Yeah

Angus Mitchell (09:54):

And Carole is such a seasoned broadcaster. She knows what she’s doing and it’s all… Yeah, but no, she doesn’t go easy.

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Alessia Horwich (10:52):

Can you explain why having radio envision is so important? Because I guess PRs who are trying to encourage their spokespeople, CEOs, whatever, to come on and they’re a bit like, “What is radio?” Why is it such a big thing?

Angus Mitchell (11:04):

I think it’s like the longevity now of interviews where when it’s in vision, because of the amount of interaction with the Times, the newspaper, the digital side of things is such a big thing now for us. They can embed videos. So there’ll be an article that if say a PR, we managed to get on a guest that gave us really good lines, interesting lines that we would then collaborate with the Times who are writing up the article, because we do a lot of collaboration with the journalists there. If we’ve done an interview that’s in vision, it just so seamlessly embeds into an article online compared to if it’s just in audio that it just makes so much sense that you would try and make it as high value as a product in terms of that interview, that you’d be able to sell it to digital articles or the sun or Daily Mail.

(11:50):

We send out lines and they’ll come to us saying, “Do you have a video of this? ” Because the digital marketplace for video is just so massive, YouTube, Instagram, Twitter, it just goes so much further.

Alessia Horwich (12:00):

Yeah. So I guess for a PR, they can sort of say to like, “This is a great thing because it’s more exposure.”

Angus Mitchell (12:06):

Oh, exactly. The simple answer is the exposure on a visualised interview compared to an audio only interview is you can’t even compare it because especially on our own YouTube channel where we’ve surpassed a billion views, we get videos that will have comfortably 200,000 views in a couple of days.

Alessia Horwich (12:26):

So if a PR is thinking about your show or late night shows, you’re saying that they get a bit more flexibility and time to show who they are and talk about what they know. If they do it in vision, then they’re likely to get more exposure if they say something interesting.

Angus Mitchell (12:42):

Yeah. And I think I’d actually go as far as we’ve had conversations where if we’re told they can’t be envisioned now, we say, “Well, we’re going to look someone else out. “

Alessia Horwich (12:50):

You will.

Angus Mitchell (12:51):

Yeah. And I’ve made that call. If there’s two brilliant guests that I can’t decipher in terms of who’d be better in terms of the way I look at it, vision is pretty high up the list now in terms of if one of them can do vision and one of them can’t. Obviously timings is always the key in radio. If they can do it live, that’s brilliant compared to a pre-recording. We do offer pre-recordings. It’s just always better if it’s live. The way the structure of our show works is we have a disco every day, which for people that don’t know radio lingo, because I’ve realised now I just call it a disco now. And so I’ve had some new people coming into shadow shifts and stuff. It’s like, “Can you look after the disco?” And they very sheepishly don’t ask what’s a disco discussion. It’s just a discussion, two people with different viewpoints on a particular topic of the day.

(13:37):

In terms of PR, this is the one that when I’ve spoken to PRs, this is the gap that I will almost actively look, what emails have I got today on different topics that actually they’re offering guests that I might not think of or I’m happy to get charities in terms of for very specific topics or brands or whatever, if they can offer a viewpoint of that newsy interesting subject line, that is always a pre-recording. So that one is always at seven o’clock. There’s going to be two voices, so they need to be comfortable talking to someone else which will likely have a different viewpoint to them. We don’t like shouty matches or anything like that. So I always remind guests that we’re not doing that. It’s kind of interesting, informative debate. It’s not a shout-off.

Alessia Horwich (14:20):

Are there any other slots in the show where PRs can help you?

Angus Mitchell (14:22):

So the disco is the big one. We also do everyday a view from here. So that is something that Carole used to do at the BBC where it will be a kind of political story or it doesn’t have to be. It can be very random. So this isn’t that helpful, but it always plays out at 10 to one. And so that’s always a pre-recording as well. And that is just a kind of, I mean, some people call them and then stories and now time for this. It’s the kind of thing that wouldn’t be leading an hour. It wouldn’t be in the front page of the newspapers, but it really matters sometimes. I mean, when the Birmingham bin strikes were on, that’s like the perfect example of this is actually really important and it’s affecting people. It’s a countrywide issue, but we can really hone into a local voice.

(15:07):

I’ve worked with PRs definitely in the past that have helped with that slot because they’ll send me a broad email on a topic and I’ll be like, “We want to do that topic, but we really want to hone in on where it’s happening. Do you have a local voice or is your voice able to hone in on the locality of the story?” We like talking to decision makers and there’s always time for the people that, I mean, yeah, we wouldn’t say no necessarily to… I mean, I hate the word, but case study is the word that’s used in terms of people that have experienced the certain story. But in terms of the broader interview, yeah, it’s the decision makers. They’re the ones that kind of –

Alessia Horwich (15:40):

It seems to me though that the show is more analytical than telling the news. It is. It’s discussing the

Angus Mitchell (15:45):

News. And I think that again is quite unique to us. We get the front page of the Times at 10 o’clock, so we’re the only place that has it at 10:00. Everyone gets it. The front page is at 10:30. We have the Times front page at 10:00 and that’s a real privilege and we kind of always own that. And that also means that we know what’s going to be on the front page very early. We want someone that can then bring it forward for the next day because usually it’s a story that’s kind of maybe happened at four o’clock in the afternoon. So drive time, it’s friendly competition, but the guests that drive getting on are the kind of guests that we would normally get on, but we’ve got to think a bit more outside the box. How can we bring it forward? And that usually comes from people that in two sentences could say the story, but here’s why it’s happened and here’s why it matters and this is where this is going to go and tomorrow morning I’m sure you’ll hear from X, Y, and Z on this.

(16:34):

That’s the kind of conversation we like to have on our show

Alessia Horwich (16:37):

That sounds to me like a pitch email that you want to get from a PR, just the right time.

Angus Mitchell (16:41):

Yeah.

Alessia Horwich (16:41):

I mean – So tell me about that timings, what should be in the email.

Angus Mitchell (16:46):

So the way my day works, I speak to Carole or whoever the presenter is, it usually is Carole Walker Monday to Wednesday, it’s Henry Bonson on Thursdays at two o’clock. So it’s quite early when I’m speaking to Carol, but that is a really broad discussion. For the disco, that’s something we try and decide early. If I get an email with disco in the subject line at 1:30 in the afternoon, that is very helpful sometimes because I’ve put so much effort into reading into the big stories, big guests, okay, let’s go for this person, this person, this person, MPs or ambassadors, et cetera. And then suddenly it’s like, okay, so what should we do the disco on today? And I’ve had days where I’m like, oh my goodness, I’ve completely forgot to think outside. And then I can literally hear Carole and we’re both kind of searching things, what’s kind of ticking through for us, what’s cutting through on the papers and what’s coming up in the times, et cetera.

(17:37):

But if I have some emails that say disco subject line of the story, I think that’s what I’d rather, and then the guest suggestion within the email. So I think story cuts through more for me than the guest name.

Alessia Horwich (17:51):

You mean like the top line or just what the story is in the news?

Angus Mitchell (17:55):

In the subject

(17:56):

Story, the top line of the story. And then in my email, I’ve started using Gemini Gems. Sorry, this is going to sound so random now, but I think this is helpful because on my AI Gemini account that I’m trying to make better for me, I’ve said CV and last broadcast history. So when I, instead of Googling someone, I’ll put them into Gemini, it’ll come up with their CV and it will say when they were last on UK broadcast, if PRs could tell me how many times their guest has been on air before or make it clear that they’ve not been on air before. That’s not a red line, but I do think if they are really broadcast friendly, that just makes life so much easier. You kind of feel almost way more in safe hands with the guest. So I think if you add that as well as their kind of title and their lines, et cetera, like people normally do, I think ad that broadcast history is really helpful.

Alessia Horwich (18:49):

What often makes the difference between success and failure in a PR pitch to you?

Angus Mitchell (18:54):

I think it sounds so obvious again, and maybe it’s unfair because I know people are doing their jobs and they’re sending it to a broad… I’m sure I’m not the only person that’s got that email that day, but I do think sometimes

Alessia Horwich (19:06):

Would you like to be the only person that had that email that day though?

Angus Mitchell (19:09):

Yeah, I would. I think it’s kind of a bit more deliberate because there’ll be names that I’ll see and I’ll be like, “Well, I know that this isn’t going to be really for me or my show or the kind of theme of Times Radio in itself.” My name’s Angus, not Mitchell. The amount of times it’s Hi Mitchell, which again, that’s petty, but it’s just like take that extra two minutes to craft it for me with Carole. When I see Carole Walker in an email, I’m a bit like, okay, they have actually at least thought of the show not just Times Radio. Again, I know that you can’t always do this. It takes lots of time, but I do think it’s –

Alessia Horwich (19:43):

Yeah, I mean, lots of journals say that to me though, and I just think it’s worth the time.

Angus Mitchell (19:46):

It is worth the time.

Alessia Horwich (19:47):

It’s not that much time.

Angus Mitchell (19:48):

No. And what I will say as well, you get relationships with these people. So if I get a good guest via someone, I have now great relationships with some PRs that I will know that they kind of cover climate change or the NHS medical platform or AI is a big one, obviously. So I actually now, rather than checking emails from people that I’m getting, I will go to them and say, “Who are you representing today?” And that is just a really great experience. And those people I have those relationships with is because of the time they took at the beginning and actually it’s not worth sending me that client, even however nice the email is. If that topic is so ridiculous for us on that show on that day, it’s probably better to not send that email and wait when you do have someone that you think would work on our show and actually I probably would say yes.

(20:37):

It’s worth just take me off that email list because unfortunately as humans you’ll see an email from a particular person and go, “They’re probably not worth my time because of the last couple of pitches.”

Alessia Horwich (20:49):

And also have a listen to what’s been covered earlier in the day and make sure that you’re not pitching something that’s repetitive.

Angus Mitchell (20:54):

Oh my goodness. And also guests that have already been on time for radio. That’s a big thing. Tell us because we always collaborate, but it’s in a newsroom. You’re looking after your show. We have recaps, which are an internal thing that will say what has happened on a particular show, but they get sent out sometimes a little bit after a show’s finished. And I have had days where I’ve worked with PRs and they’ve literally set up the whole interview with a different show and they’ve done that interview and I’ve missed it. I can’t cover it all, but I’ve missed it. And then half an hour before we’re meant to do it, I find out and then I’ve got to drop them, but it’s there. It’s just kind of a bit of a unprofessional thing. And actually in term, this might be helpful as well, the window of guests, I would say I’d always feel a bit like, oh, they’ve been on recently, probably within a week I would say, which that may be a bit less depending on the story again.

(21:46):

But I think if that guest has been on within a week, it’s a bit like –

Alessia Horwich (21:49):

Don’t bother pitching them again.

Angus Mitchell (21:50):

I think again, yeah, it’s a bit like they’ve just been on.

Alessia Horwich (21:53):

Okay. So Angus, we’re going to do the recap now. So tell me, what are your three essential bits of advice for PRs who are trying to get their spokespeople on your show?

Angus Mitchell (22:01):

So I think know the show. So know who you are pitching to, be it me, be it Carole or Henry, depending on the show, know Times Radio, the kind of thing that our listeners are looking for. I think this is all one answer, but yeah, know the show. That’s number one. Number two, I think the subject line is really that I get a lot of emails and I will skim the subject line. So I think if you’re pitching for that disco that we discussed, the discussion, put disco in the subject line because people don’t do that. They’ll put story or breaking or news, et cetera. I get so many of them, but disco really does cut through and that sounds a bit trivial, but that will think about your subject line. So the disco and then the story. And then three, tell me timings. So we haven’t really discussed it too much, but the kind of how flexible are they?

(22:56):

How available are your guests? And that comes into the kind of broadcast friendly nature of them. How much have they done before? Do they get it? I know that’s so simple again, but do they get what we’re looking for in terms of radio? Are they going to engage with Carole? Are they going to be able to talk about other things? If they say yes, if timings change, are they open to other timings? I think that can be really key as a part of your email again. So tell me when they’re around and how much broadcasting they’ve done before. I think that’s probably like 10 points in three, but I think that’s probably what I really look for when I’m looking at my emails and when I’m PRs are getting in touch with me for stories in the day.