Why PRs should pitch to trade publications 

Alessia Horwich (00:08):

Welcome to On the Rox, a podcast from Roxhill Media that asks some of the best journalists in the UK for their solutions to the kind of dilemmas that confront PRs daily. We know that there’s not a one size fits all way of communicating with journalists, so we are going direct to the writers in the newsroom to hear how they like to work with PRS and how to stand out in their inboxes. My name is Alessia Horwich. I’m a former Sunday Times journalist, now the brand director at Roxhill. Today we’re going to be talking about why PRs should be pitching to trade magazines with Eve Maddock Jones, the editor at Investment Week. So tell me a bit about how you got into Journalism Eve. Yeah, how did it work?

Eve Maddock-Jones (00:44):

I started in journalism when I was 16, had classic thing. I’ve been good at writing at school and interested in that and people saying Should be a teacher and this, and I was a bit like, I don’t really know if that’s what I want to do. And Kate Adie came to Gibraltar where I grew up doing a talk for the literary festival there. She’d been based out there as a correspondent during one of the conflicts. I remember sitting there listening to her and I was so taken aback with how extraordinary someone’s career had been with, they were just covering these world events and they remembered them. They were there and they’ve really seen it and I just thought that’s what I want to do. I didn’t know if that, I mean went over my think my mom thought I was going to sign up to the army the next day and let go off and get bit particular about it like that. But yeah, absolutely from her and the next week I went to, there’s one newspaper in Gibraltar and one magazine and I went in and I was like, I just want to learn can I do this? And they let me just start shadowing them and interning and then suddenly I was writing and it went from there. So I very luckily and clearly found early on doing journalism.

Alessia Horwich (01:54):

That’s super. Yeah. So then did you go and study it?

Eve Maddock-Jones (01:57):

I went to university, I did English literature and history and that was on the advice of my news editor at the time at the Gibraltar Chronicle.

Alessia Horwich (02:05):

So English lit and history. And now you’re the editor of Investment Week.

Eve Maddock-Jones (02:09):

Yeah.

Alessia Horwich (02:09):

How’s that work?

Eve Maddock-Jones (02:11):

I know I ask myself that a lot. I think probably most financial journalists or most journalists in many sectors, you don’t necessarily aim to go into that. I dunno, maybe the sports ones are a bit different. I feel like they from early days pegged themselves, they go into that. Once I left and I was doing the NTTJ was doing the exam period and you are going around the local papers, so I did mine in Brighton. So you have the Argus there and you’re applying and you’re suddenly realising how kind of broad and you always assume you go for straight national press and Trustnet, which is where I ended up getting my first full-time journalism job after university and doing the NTTJ and a magazine editor at the time had done his training at the same centre and basically got in contact and said, there’s an opportunity, there’s an opening for a reporter, Dave, you want to put themselves forward.

(03:00):

And I thought, you’re throwing your hat at kind of everything. And I was growing up in Gibraltar, people are aware it’s a tax haven status, which does not reflects the wellbeing that I had. I’m waiting for my parents to suddenly expose why we went there. At some point I’d be really helpful. But yeah, so I’d kind of been around the concept of trusts and things like that. I was like, I’ve heard this stuff and applied and didn’t know what a fund was, didn’t really know anything. I don’t really think I had actually much business applying to that tool. I remember in the interview Gary Jackson’s the editor at a time and it was Rob Langston asked me my thoughts about Donald Trump, which being 22, I had to really kind of hold myself and be like, you’ve got to show your non-biased skill here to talk about that.

(03:47):

And ended up there and from there moved over to Investment Week three and a bit years ago and just had the huge amount of growth opportunities to sit in the editor seat and it’s actually its 30th anniversary this year, Investment Week. So to see it at that point has been really, really special and had so many people in the industry talk to me about what that 30 is of that people were saying to us. I remember getting the first coffee of the magazine and I just was like, that’s so ingrained in the memory of some of big people in the industry, which is really special.

Alessia Horwich (04:21):

We are sort of here to talk about investment me, but sort of not because really we’re going to talk about trade versus consumer publications. So one of my first questions to you, it’s like what is the best thing about working for a trade publication?

Eve Maddock-Jones (04:33):

You are really there to hold industry to account and you can get way more in the weeds of the detail than the consumer side. Obviously the difference to that is we’re a bit more specialists. So again, our sister titles that we have, I don’t have to do much on the pension side. We have a dedicated publication for that, which is very handy. I just kind of trot over there on budget day and ask what’s going on with the triple lock. But it is that and it allows you to really go in and know the names of the people in there and I mean I’m a bit of a analytics in nerd nerd, which is why Trustnet was such a great fit for me. But you sit and you are trolling through these company results and assessment of values and the things which are not unimportant on the consumer side.

(05:16):

But I think when you’re trying to hit such a broad remit of readers and the amount of information that you have to translate at that level, you can assume there’s a lot of understood knowledge already when you’re working at a trade for the sector, it’s a bit more specialist so you can get a bit more gnarly with it and you can kind of go into these complex fee structures that is in the investment side at least. But yeah, you can go into really what the experts in the industry want to spend their time understanding. And you don’t have to be as broad based as talking to a general audience. I think that’s a great advocacy for it is that it allows the space to borrow from the fund managers that you talk to. You can be a bit more bottom up about it. You can kind of go in at that lower level rather than just having these kind of broad top down kind of overlays, but also they’re really important to look at as well, which we get the chance to do.

Alessia Horwich (06:08):

What are the advantages to having an audience that’s really invested in your subject

Eve Maddock-Jones (06:12):

Knowing that they do have a good baseline knowledge of where you’re at and therefore I think it allows you to be retargeted about what they are going to read and what they find interesting and it’s also, we are really interactive with our audience. We hold sessions where we’ll get readers and say, what are you enjoying and this and that. Sometimes we’ll be talking about things in the team and we see it as something that’s really important, but the industry is we are really actually focused on what’s going on with ETFs. We’re not as focused on this thing over here, which is great. But then I think the payoff of that sometimes is you can get stuck in a sense of that these topics are interesting to people and sometimes that doesn’t get the most clicks is the most important things to write about sustainability and ESG has always been there in markets in this idea of putting your money to work for good outside of just making returns. That’s really come off in the past few years and it’s really important to still write about those things. You want to be tapped into what is the pulse of what readers want. Also, you don’t want to just be driven by the fact just because it isn’t getting the most views doesn’t mean it’s not really important to put on the record these things are happening.

(07:26):

So it’s like the trade off of that sometimes and that’s a big thing with diversity points and things like that. So that’s the task is to evolve those conversations to continue to be interesting rather than just, yeah, it’s like climate change is happening and we all need to do more for diversity. It’s holding the account and how do we contribute to that changing as well.

Alessia Horwich (07:46):

Yeah, that is actually a really good point because you, I mean one of my questions is how does your audience change the way you approach your journalism and how you get your hooks and your angles and your stories. But actually you’ve made a really good point there that you can’t totally be led by your audience. You’ve really got to see the broader picture.

Eve Maddock-Jones (08:02):

and I think news and journalism and yeah, there’s all these conversations going on about, I get it all the time, is AI going to come for your job? And I said, that’s when if you misunderstand what news is and what journalism is, if that’s the attitude, some of the broader titles are doing it on the consumer side and some of the trade tiles are doing it as well. I’ve seen the GDP numbers come out, what’s happened with the inflation stats for example, that’s fine and we’re all going to write probably the same very similar 300 words of what that is and that’s being put to be written by AI and checks by journalists. I see the argument for that. I think it does open up time long as there is a check in that, but I think it’s people assuming that AI could come and do the things that actually people go, I wish I’d written that story, or Oh wow, you’ve uncovered something here.

(08:57):

You’ve really, really done something that’s special. Yeah, I can talk back to our former news editor, Valeria Martinez had a fantastic series on an investment trust called Home Reit, which was just found to be absolutely this mess and the properties that this portfolio invested in were basically just becoming an illegal marijuana safe house. So it was grown in and it’s like AI couldn’t sit and talk and figure things out and that’s maybe an extreme version of what I’m saying, but I think that’s the point of you want people to have the time to really go into those stories and the audience wants to see that stuff. It wants you to go and do the work and speak to the managers, which is what a big thing Investment Week does. Speak to the managers that they’re holding their money with and make their decision. They don’t get the time to do that.

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Alessia Horwich (10:43):

Taking it from a PRs perspective, you’ve kind of nailed one of the main advantages of working with a trade publication is the time that you guys can put into writing great stories. Are there other things that you think that PRs might overlook in the benefits of working with you guys?

Eve Maddock-Jones (11:01):

I have a lot of grace for PRs. I totally understand the pressures that they’re under and the demand from the clients to have names and opinions out there and things. And I think it’s making a very generalised point about the age demographic. I didn’t know who Investment Week was when I was in my twenties for example, and that’s twenties and thirties as an age of a lot of PRs that I experienced in the industry. For example, you might just not be as familiar with them. Everybody knows the FT really knows the times in the Guardian. Those are named recognised brands, absolutely as they should be. I’m not sure trying to say Investment Week sits on that level, but I think it is maybe not just from exposure initially not really knowing this is the audience of which this sits with and that’s obviously the job for them to learn.

(11:45):

But I think it is really getting into the point that there’s arguably a broader range of people you can put in front of us. We want to speak to analysts, we want to speak to the CIOs, the economists, really anybody that touches money or even anybody that doesn’t touch money, people who build indices and things like that, the distribution heads, the marketing guys, they’re interesting for us because they’re the ones who are going through the industry and driving what are the trends of this? There’s a new product coming out, they’re the ones who are going to tell us about it and they’re going to explain it to us as well. When regulation happens, we want to go and talk to the FCA and lawyers and things like that. So I think that’s the real value of pitching the trade side to PRS is we can get a bit more nitty gritty with it, for lack of a better phrase. And I want to say all just with the caveats though, I’m sick of the amount of caveats everybody has to do nowadays, which is, I’m not saying the nationals don’t do this on the consumer side, it’s just different and

Alessia Horwich (12:48):

How is it different? Tell us what are the differences.

Eve Maddock-Jones (12:50):

I think because it is so specific, so my whole remit is everything that is available to UK retail investors, so I don’t have to do that. The personal advisor side, we’ll say preparing for the budget for example, and what’s going to go on with the tax changes potentially what the chances going to do. I’m aware of that, but that’s not going to be, I’m not the one who’s going to write a story. Jen Frost who’s the editor or professional advisor, she’s going to take that on for me. I’m going to be doing the ISIS side of that.

(13:18):

So it’s that element to it and kind of breaking apart really what is most relevant. Again, I’m not going to be doing the triple lock pension side that’s going to be on Jonathan Stapleton. So whereas when I look at the money desks and the investment desks, that consumer side, you’ve got to do this huge broad remit of everything and it’s maybe got to be top down, whereas we will go through all that, but we’re reading through all the side documents that get put out as well. We’re getting into the regulation, we’re chasing the FCA, so what just got extended to you? What’s this gnarly piece of investment trust regulation that we’ve been chasing for a year? And that’s a really big deal in our sector. We do things like that.

Alessia Horwich (13:57):

Yeah. So is it like the micro approach in the sense that a story that maybe isn’t big enough for a broadsheet.

Eve Maddock-Jones (14:03):

I think that is it. I think it’s that does it have the reach of people outside of the investment space in the asset management space? Maybe not. It isn’t something that is as relevant to people who aren’t working in that all the time, but the people who are in it, those changes in those tweaks can absolutely determine if that business, you’ve just launched that new product if you’re even going to get it off the ground anymore. So I think it is that it’s exactly that we go through more of almost the bottom up side is like how is the industry working? I find it really interesting to fund managers and talk about how do you build your analysis, how are you competing to get the analysis in that everybody else isn’t doing? So literally how do you teach the analysts that work with you? How do you build your spreadsheets kind of thing. That’s the stuff that again, kind of analytics nerd in me likes to do.

Alessia Horwich (14:54):

Yeah. Do you think that the way you work with PRs and with well fund managers and the actual people on the ground doing it is more collaborative than potentially a consumer journalist would be?

Eve Maddock-Jones (15:03):

I dunno. And I say I have the experience of working on a consumer title, so I dunno if it’s different, but I can’t imagine it is. I think that everybody, it’s all about relationships of that and that’s a huge thing that I’d always want to advocate for is, I mean I’ve read hack attack, I understand and I think it is balancing that we’re in an interesting week to talk about news with everything that’s gone on and trust in journalists to be honest with the quotes you’re given and that is you’re in a relationship of trust and it does go both ways. We need prs and they need us. They are the keeper of the keys ball. So they help a lot and they teach you a lot as well. You ask someone, it’s like who’s really good at talking about this? They’re going to know five people about it and great.

(15:49):

And I might be like, I’m not a private credit specialist for example. I’ve not dedicated my career to that. So when I want to speak to people and they’re great for putting me in front of people who are really patient with that sometimes and I’m like, this isn’t even on the record, can you just talk to me for 10 minutes about how this works? And there’s many that do. So yeah, I think that it is, I can imagine everything is collaborative, everybody needs to be, obviously there’s limits to all relationships and I’m sure you’ve had that as well where someone’s bit like, I’m not happy with that headline and it’s a bit like editorial advice is not warranted here. Is it accurate or is it not sort of thing. And that’s the line you set, but then they do the same to you.

Alessia Horwich (16:34):

I wonder if the difference is time, if you guys have more time to actually work properly with a client, with someone who’s got information for you.

Eve Maddock-Jones (16:42):

Yeah, I guess so. Mean, yeah, we Investment Week for many years had a magazine which maybe put it more in the like of you’re running to a print deadline and I’ve worked on magazines and daily papers, so doing something to get to print is a very different experience. So you are like there is no option for me to extend you this deadline. You’ve got 20 minutes and that’s it. I don’t think that changes the collaborative nature of it though. I think that you still need to be able to have open dialogue and to be say, I need this, can you deliver it or not? Or I want to talk to this person, here’s my pitch as to why I want to talk to them for example. And sometimes maybe convincing them why they’re right to speak to you for example.

Alessia Horwich (17:22):

How do you do that?

Eve Maddock-Jones (17:23):

Obviously the coming in with the brand reputation is really helpful. Again, have the benefit of sitting on a desk that’s been built on a 30 year legacy that’s really, really well respected. And I think again, it is just every day showing up and saying not only am I on the pulse of the conversations, I’ve also recognised what I think is good to talk to you about if you go somewhere and I’d just be like, this is not what I do. You’ve understood the brief of them I think is important. So there is this relationship that we sit in between them and their client, so it’s like there’s value to talking to us. It isn’t like I don’t actually go out there intending to be the worst part of anybody’s day or screw someone over when I speak to people and it’s like you’re a journalist and things like that. And it’s like I don’t actually go out looking to screw anybody over. It’s actually just the framing. I always go into any pitch with if I was a client, if I was a client, what do I want to know? What do I want to know from this MD, this fund manager, this analyst, I could be who I’m writing for.

(18:25):

And I think holding that in my mind is really, really good to remember why I’m going to them the questions.

Alessia Horwich (18:31):

I mean you’ve said that you have the advantage, I mean trades have the advantage of offering a platform to many more people as spokespeople, but often it’s a CEO that a PR is looking to give a platform to. What are the advantages of doing a proper CEO profile with a trade as opposed to a consumer publication?

Eve Maddock-Jones (18:51):

Yeah, I think Investment Week does that fantastically. And I say that we have a big interview series that’s dedicated to interviewing CEOs and CIOs and it allows them to talk about the company they’re running, but also it’s really important to talk about them. My favourite part of doing those interviews with CEOs and I always ask is how did you get into the industry? It’s bit like all of us, how have you ended up in this seat? But yeah, the benefits of that is again, because we have that expert audience that are reading this and you’re speaking directly to clients and potential clients as well, you’re speaking to the advisors and the people who are moving money around in the industry, you’re talking directly to the people you really want to be coming to your website and putting money with you.

Alessia Horwich (19:36):

There’s a dynamism about trade publications because of the younger staff and I think what do you think that brings to coverage?

Eve Maddock-Jones (19:45):

I think it’s really interesting because I look at the demographics of my team for example, and we are writing for an audience that is much further down their investment careers than we are for myself. I only started investing when I got into writing about the industry. So you are there and it forced you to learn a lot more. But then I think it allows you to maybe step out of the bubble of just because this is the way this has always been for X amount of years, you’re not like this is a bit mad that it’s like this sometimes. And I think it gives you a space to remember that there are those fresh questions that come through.

Alessia Horwich (20:21):

We were also talking about gossip before and how that’s a major boon of working with the trades because it’s kind of fun isn’t it? How much is that an element of your job and how much do you like working with PS on things like that?

Eve Maddock-Jones (20:33):

I mean everybody likes it. I mean that is kind of what journalism is a bit of dressed up gossip at times and you’re like, oh, I’ve heard a bit of a rumour about this when you get it to chase. But I think it is that I genuinely, I don’t see Investment Week sitting in a silo of the retail investment trade. I love seeing City Wire succeed, although obviously we want the scoops and we want the stories. It’s great that they’ve got fantastic donors over there. Same with portfolio advisor, money marketing, all of them. I want all of us to thrive and I do really feel when I see them, it’s not like, oh no, it’s the competition. Sometimes it’s just like, oh, did you hear so and so? Obviously you keep your cards close to your chest. But I think for the PRs as well, there’s a good way to see who can be trusted with information.

(21:29):

Sometimes it might just be, I’ve had it where of called someone, I was like, I’ve heard this person’s leaving this fund manager. I was like, alright, it’s not being an answer yet. Can you hold onto this information for two days time? And then they’ve called me back and said, someone else has got wind of this. Go with your story. You came to us first on it and it is that, it’s like you kind of entered a bit of a pact there and that was exactly, everybody kind of makes a lot of sense. If you burn someone out and it’s like, well I’m probably not going to trust you with that.

Alessia Horwich (22:01):

I guess that’s a great way for a PR to build a relationship with you.

Eve Maddock-Jones (22:03):

It is and I think that that hopefully helps build the bridges of anybody who is nervous about working with press. And you can’t say it’s for everybody obviously, but really treated A majority are actually there to do great work and they’re not in the business of actually trying to burn any bridges or screen. But obviously if you’re taking the Mick, it’s like I’m not holding the story anymore, you’re not giving me a good enough reason to other than it’s just going to call you a headache basically. Gossip is one way to phrase it, but it is just this kind of trade up of information and you’ll start, someone starts chasing the story that you’ll see and you’re just like, where have they got that? And then it encourages you to start looking around and considering angles and figuring that out. So yeah, it’s the positive cycle of everybody wants to get the scoops, they’re great, but it’s also, it’s just good fun isn’t it? Sometimes we all have good stories of the industry which are not relevant to anything to do with news. It’s just very people focused. You just want to hear those things. It’s great.

Alessia Horwich (23:04):

I assume it’s sort of like a collateral between PRS and trade journalists. You scratch my back or scratch yours in the sense that

Eve Maddock-Jones (23:11):

I think it’s that and I think that makes it almost sound if people watch thick of it, I remember getting my friend to watch it and they’re like, is this how it works? And I was like, yeah, but it’s like don’t take it as sinister as this.

Alessia Horwich (23:22):

Yeah, not sinister.

Eve Maddock-Jones (23:23):

It’s collaborative and it’s just understanding, it’s like we’re trying to get information out that sometimes isn’t what a PR wants to be just because again, I was not great news for their company. But then equally when there are huge moves in the industry and there’s promotions and stuff, they want that to get the attention it deserves and they’ll come and share that with you. So it is collaborative but I think that’s any industries but the product of news and journalism is so evident of that. I couldn’t do anything if I didn’t exist in that relationship. How do you get told anything otherwise if there isn’t kind of a PR letting you know about it sometimes or just like again, oh that’s interesting. Let me go follow that trail sort of thing.

Alessia Horwich (24:06):

In terms of the advantage of working with trades for PRs, you don’t want ’em to overlook you guys. You are super valuable. What are three things you would sort of say to a PR who was maybe starting out in their career.

Eve Maddock-Jones (24:17):

In the context of talking to trades? Come and meet us. Speak to the journalists, learn who’s who, read them as well. Don’t be shy. I come to our events as well, I think is a huge thing. Invest, we does a lot of events. That’s a big thing about what trades do. Actually. The event side is massive. It’s what really keeps the lights on quite a lot of the time, obviously outside of the news and that’s where we bring all these people that we write about together. So if you’re a PR, get your clients in there, come and meet the people, you’ll see what your competitors and how they’re getting people pitched up on things and stuff like that as well. I was given a lot of grace and a lot of patience when I joined the industry. So for prs who are joining and do feel nervous, remember you have a right to be there. You can ask the stupid questions and that’s absolutely fine.

Alessia Horwich (25:03):

I think that’s probably an advantage of working with trade. I’m not sure consumer journalists would say the same thing.

Eve Maddock-Jones (25:08):

Yeah, maybe that’s my attitude at various times. PRs I know really well and I’ve said, do you me to just come and meet your new ones? I’ll just, I’ll come and have a chat with them. They can ask me all the questions if they want because I remember being new and I didn’t know how that worked. And the senior PR industry were just like here, child be. But that kindness didn’t burn me out of an industry.

(25:29):

That can be really intimidating and I mean don’t get me wrong, this is not an invitation to suddenly just like drop me every single random question that comes into your mind in my inbox. I do not have time to answer them all. But in the spirit of saying be inquisitive and ask those questions, cold calling to ring up and be like, did you see my press release five days ago? I understand why that is being put on you to do. It’s not going to get you the result that you want. It’s taking that coffee first and saying what works to pitch you? What is useful? Who do you want to talk to? What topics are you looking at the moment? Are you looking at fixed income? I’ve got a guy there, he’s great at fixed income. Can I set up a meeting with the two of you probably?

(26:10):

And things like that I think are good to do. And I think you do get that opportunity to come down from just talking these very broad based top-down approaches and you can be really strategic with it as well, I think is important. You don’t just have to put your top five spokespersons out who are really well media trained and come round. It can be the portfolio managers that are really, really great, but maybe don’t get the time up at that scale to come and talk. You are coming to speak directly to the audience that you are trying to work and trying to get to trust and work with you.

Alessia Horwich (26:47):

That’s great. Eve, thank you so much.

Eve Maddock-Jones (26:48):

Thank you so much. Yeah, thank you so much. I really enjoyed it.